The great tire debacle at the USGP - Build a Chicane or We Don't Race, Say Michelin - Houston-Imports.com

zerinVR6 · 06-19-2005, 07:13 AM

Source: Speedtv.com

The seven Michelin teams have agreed that they will only race in the USGP if a chicane is fitted before the banked Turn 13 overnight.

The teams have written a letter to the FIA explaining their position and requesting the construction of a chicane.

However that is extremely unlikely to happen, which means that we could see a race take place with just the six Bridgestone cars in it, if the Michelin teams stick to their agreement.

The news emerged after most of the world’s media had headed off to dine in downtown Indy, which means that Speedtv.com was left to get a world exclusive insight from the key personnel involved, none of whom was prepared to be quoted on the record.

However four team bosses made it quite clear to us that this was a serious decision and that there was now no other alternative.

The bombshell decision came after a meeting of the team principals and Michelin bosses. The French company could not guarantee the safety of its tires, and the fact that this race is in the USA, where litigation is common, made things even more awkward.

The option of using the Barcelona tires imported from Clermont-Ferrand has in effect been abandoned. Teams decided that they had no real information about whether they would last, and also there was no firm knowledge about what penalties might ensue if they were used, although it is understood that the FIA had informally suggested that something like a 10 second stop-and-go rather than exclusion.

Thus the chicane option was considered the only viable choice. Bernie Ecclestone has agreed that it makes sense, and he is duty bound to provide a full field of cars for the race for promoter Tony George.

However, the practicalities are insurmountable in terms of designing a chicane, building it, and ensuring that it is safe. Changes to tracks go through a strict homologation process. All those jobs are the responsibility of Charlie Whiting.

As of 8 p.m. Saturday night, nothing was being done to put the process into motion, and we understand that while Bernie wants it to happen, there are too many hurdles to be overcome in terms of safety. We understand that Whiting has resisted pressure from Ecclestone to make it happen, comewhat may.

The cars are of course equipped with the downforce configuration and gear ratios for the track as it was designed, and they won’t be allowed to change.

The only realistic alternative is that the teams opt to run “slowly” through the problematic Turn 13. That is what bemused Ferrari sources suggest they do, anyway, having indicated that there was no way it was going to happen.

This story is not yet over, and Sunday at Indy could be the most dramatic and emotionally charged day at any F1 circuit since 1994.

Mobil1 · 06-19-2005, 11:10 AM

Thats absurd, racing is all about meeting the challenges and overcoming the difficulties that individual tracks present.

If the FIA were to give in to team demands it would further prove the point that F1 is a sport composed of overfunded, whiney crybabies.

"We dont like this track, change it!"

Granted, this is the only roval on the Formula 1 but if a specific tire manufacturer had trouble on Spa-Francorchamps or Magny Cours they wouldnt modify the track lay out just to suit those teams needs.

If they dont want to race, thats their problem.

zerinVR6 · 06-19-2005, 12:23 PM

More from BBC Sport

Quote:

Ferrari were threatening to derail a rescue plan to save the US GP with an hour to go to the start of the race.
After frantic last-ditch talks, nine of the 10 teams agreed to introduce a chicane at the final corner, which is causing problems for Michelin tyres.

But Ferrari are holding out and unless they agree, the race will apparently only be run as a non-championship race.

Michelin had advised its seven teams not to race because of the tyre failure that lead Ralf Schumacher to crash.

More soon.

zerinVR6 · 06-19-2005, 01:49 PM

Well, if you aren't watching this "race" you missed one of the most important things to happen in F1 history. After the warmup lap, ALL the Michelin equipped teams pulled off the track in protest and did not run the race. There are SIX cars racing this race. What a joke, they have now set F1 back in the US 10 years.

Ris4Drift · 06-19-2005, 03:32 PM

formula d > formula 1

Mobil1 · 06-19-2005, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zerinVR6

Well, if you aren't watching this "race" you missed one of the most important things to happen in F1 history. After the warmup lap, ALL the Michelin equipped teams pulled off the track in protest and did not run the race. There are SIX cars racing this race. What a joke, they have now set F1 back in the US 10 years.

I watched the entire race.

It was utterly disappointing to see politics and ill-prepared teams destroy what could have been a great event.

I blame not only Michelin but the FIA as well.

Though my previous post stated that altering the track would be a faux pax in the racing world, NOT altering the track did more damage to the public image of F1 than altering the course ever could have done.

The FIA made a political move against Michelin with their ultimatum stating that if the course was altered the race would not be an FIA sanctioned event thereby negating it from the points race.

What a bloody joke.

Edit: By the way, the U.S. fans didnt help the situation by throwing stuff on to the track.

Ris4Drift · 06-19-2005, 04:27 PM

there wouldnt have been a situation had not michelin/pansy f1 drivers boycotted usgp lol

zerinVR6 · 06-19-2005, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ris4Drift

there wouldnt have been a situation had not michelin/pansy f1 drivers boycotted usgp lol

I'm not sure you quite understand the rules or events that led to this.

The sidewalls of the left rear couldn't handle the G-loading of the banked oval section of the track. If this is accurate, then the track surface really should have nothing to do with Michelins problems.

Another thing that was mentioned was that per the FIA's sporting reg's, a tire manufacturer is REQUIRED to bring TWO dry weather compounds to the race. Their primary compound, as well as a harder, less competitive compound, to use in this type of situation. Michelin failed to do so. They only brought one. They did overnight some new tires from France, but they were found to be defective as well. Either way, it was all Michelin's fault. They dropped the ball.

Bottom line, the drivers on Michelins were at a huge safety risk, and decided not to race.

Please do not post in this thread if you don't have anything worthwhile to contribute.

Mobil1 · 06-19-2005, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zerinVR6

I'm not sure you quite understand the rules or events that led to this.

Thats what I was thinking.

**azinwood** · 06-19-2005, 09:36 PM

thats some crazy stuff!!

Ris4Drift · 06-20-2005, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zerinVR6

I'm not sure you quite understand the rules or events that led to this.

The sidewalls of the left rear couldn't handle the G-loading of the banked oval section of the track. If this is accurate, then the track surface really should have nothing to do with Michelins problems.

Another thing that was mentioned was that per the FIA's sporting reg's, a tire manufacturer is REQUIRED to bring TWO dry weather compounds to the race. Their primary compound, as well as a harder, less competitive compound, to use in this type of situation. Michelin failed to do so. They only brought one. They did overnight some new tires from France, but they were found to be defective as well. Either way, it was all Michelin's fault. They dropped the ball.

Bottom line, the drivers on Michelins were at a huge safety risk, and decided not to race.

Please do not post in this thread if you don't have anything worthwhile to contribute.

well, as a driver in a professional racing series let me tell you this.

as a driver its not my job to engineer tires that can withstand g forces from going around a corner at 230mph. its my job to make sure i kick everyones ass to teh best of my ability and make the sponsors/peopel on my team happy. however if an engineer from my tire manufacturer tells me that i might DIE due to their lazyness/underenginnering id probaby sit it out for love of my own life. but it is still 100% michelins fault for this, and NOBODY elses.

now again i say, if michelin didnt do their homework they probably wouldnt have millions of people wanting to boycott their tires due to this, and about 300,000+ pissed off fans who took a lot of their time money to go support USGP, and got fucked in the ass by michelin, and michelin alone is at fault.

so before you tell me not to post again, maybe you shouldnt try to argue with someone who agrees with you.

also FWIW if i recall corecctly CART came to texas motor speedway a couple years ago, had the same problem and also had several drivers blackout fromt he g's they were pulling on teh bank. however unlike this situation ti was properly adressed ona day otehr than raceday.

zerinVR6 · 06-20-2005, 01:19 AM

So lets not call the drivers pansys then, like in your last post.

It is Michelins fault for being unprepared, and the entire motorsports community is the big loser here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ris4Drift

but it is still 100% michelins fault for this, and NOBODY elses.

Ris4Drift · 06-20-2005, 02:35 AM

well, f1 drivers are kinda pansyish as well, just not relating to this situation. the pansy f1 driver comment was a whole nother thread.

Hotrodguru · 06-20-2005, 02:43 AM

What series?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ris4Drift

well, as a driver in a professional racing series let me tell you this.

What's really sad is that the Michelin teams proposed a solution beside the chicane and the FIA still shot it down. Well while I initially liked the whole chicane idea I came to my senses, it's unfair to the Bridgestone runners. We surely know that they haven’t been at the top of their game all year and still have competed and are slowly catching up tire wise. Now finally Bridgestone has a superior product at a race and Michelin just tells the teams to pull out.

Possible Solution (some already mentioned by teams and shot down by the FIA)

1. Michelin teams had conceded the top points to the Bridgestone runners. All teams should have been given NEW tires for race day and just penalize the Michelin teams via points.

Drink Tapioca · 06-20-2005, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotrodguru

Possible Solution (some already mentioned by teams and shot down by the FIA)

1. Michelin teams had conceded the top points to the Bridgestone runners. All teams should have been given NEW tires for race day and just penalize the Michelin teams via points.

I blame FIA for not allowing teams to change tires after the qualiflying runs. Rules/regulations are made to be broken, when safetly is an issue.

allmotorking · 06-20-2005, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drink Tapioca

I blame FIA for not allowing teams to change tires after the qualiflying runs. Rules/regulations are made to be broken, when safetly is an issue.

couldn't the michelin teams have pitted after the first lap and changed tires? sadly, it turned into a situation where a bunch of old farts was not willing to agree on terms and ultimately hurting the sport.

SecretAgent · 06-20-2005, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drink Tapioca

I blame FIA for not allowing teams to change tires after the qualiflying runs. Rules/regulations are made to be broken, when safetly is an issue.

the FIA suggested MANY different solutions, the teams nor michelin would agree to any of them. one was letting them pit every 10 laps to change tires(michelin denied that one because they still couldn't guarantee their teams or tires safety, they weren't even sure the tires would handle 10 laps), another was limiting speed for the michelin cars through turn 13, etc. michelin turned down this solution because the bridgestone teams didnt' have to follow that speed regulation as well. they wanted the bridgestone teams to also be slowed down or also forced to pit. naturally, that wasn't going to happen. you can't place a deficit on another team because your team didn't prepare properly.

protegeownzj00 · 06-20-2005, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allmotorking

couldn't the michelin teams have pitted after the first lap and changed tires?

FIA rules now only allow tire changes if there is damage to a tire that could become dangerous. the michelin teams would have to pit constantly to change the outside rear tire if they could have somehow been able to tell what shape the tire was in prior to pitting.

there was no good solution. the michelin teams wanted the chicane in place before T13 and allow the race to be for no points, but Ferrari didn't agree with this change and neither did the FIA. even if Ferrari had agreed, the FIA would have never allowed so many changes so quickly.

Michelin failed to sufficiently change their tires to meet the vertical loads experienced in T13, and because of it 3 drivers went off track/wrecked because of it. Safety is the biggest concern in racing and engineering and it just happened to win out this weekend.

FYI- The crowd was pretty much clueless about what was going on. My buddies picked up very little info on their scanner, I was getting more via television lol.

tiedupfool · 06-20-2005, 04:20 PM

I cant say I blame them. They even tried to have tires shipped overnight for the race but that was against FIA rules so they were damned if the do damned if they dont. I feel sorry for the crowd that chunked out about $75-100 a ticket.

conecrazy · 06-21-2005, 12:21 AM

i wouldn't put the blame solely on michelin. they fessed up to this foul up and made no bones about the fact that they screwed up and that something had to be done for the safety of the drivers. they wanted to fly new tires in for all the teams on race day. but F1 rules say you must use the same set of tires for qualifying and the race and cannot change the tires unless they are punctured or going flat. so then they tried to have an additional chicane put in to slow the cars on the super high speed turn and front straight. FIA said no.

secretagent: yeah FIA did offer several solutions but the problem is that it's not a practical way of managing it. it doesn't guarantee the safety of the drivers. when the first michelin driver gets passed by another driver at turn 13, he will try his hardest to regain his position. it would have been a dangerous situation. the chicane was the only logical solution IMHO.

and it's not the drivers that decided to boycott. they wanted to race. but the driver is only one part of a team. and it was the team that decided to boycott.

the compromise would have been to put the chicane in before T13 and allow
bridgestone to take top points.

david coultard said it best:

“The reality is that mature adults were not able to come to a resolution that would have allowed us to put on the show that everybody wants to see in Formula One, I am so, so sorry for what we’ve done because there was a way out. There was a way to create a solution to let us go racing. Yes, it wasn’t the fault of Bridgestone that Michelin had a problem here, but we are all traveling the same circus together and we are all working together. There has to be a compromise that allows a way of penalizing the Michelin runners and benefiting the Bridgestone runners because of the fault that Michelin had.”

screw FIA and bring on GPWC!!!

06-19-2005, 07:13 AM	#1
zerinVR6 Automotive News Guy Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Cypress, TX Posts: 2,153 Car: '05.5 Audi A4 2.0T Quattro and Various Press Cars iTrader: (0)	The great tire debacle at the USGP - Build a Chicane or We Don't Race, Say Michelin Source: Speedtv.com The seven Michelin teams have agreed that they will only race in the USGP if a chicane is fitted before the banked Turn 13 overnight. The teams have written a letter to the FIA explaining their position and requesting the construction of a chicane. However that is extremely unlikely to happen, which means that we could see a race take place with just the six Bridgestone cars in it, if the Michelin teams stick to their agreement. The news emerged after most of the world’s media had headed off to dine in downtown Indy, which means that Speedtv.com was left to get a world exclusive insight from the key personnel involved, none of whom was prepared to be quoted on the record. However four team bosses made it quite clear to us that this was a serious decision and that there was now no other alternative. The bombshell decision came after a meeting of the team principals and Michelin bosses. The French company could not guarantee the safety of its tires, and the fact that this race is in the USA, where litigation is common, made things even more awkward. The option of using the Barcelona tires imported from Clermont-Ferrand has in effect been abandoned. Teams decided that they had no real information about whether they would last, and also there was no firm knowledge about what penalties might ensue if they were used, although it is understood that the FIA had informally suggested that something like a 10 second stop-and-go rather than exclusion. Thus the chicane option was considered the only viable choice. Bernie Ecclestone has agreed that it makes sense, and he is duty bound to provide a full field of cars for the race for promoter Tony George. However, the practicalities are insurmountable in terms of designing a chicane, building it, and ensuring that it is safe. Changes to tracks go through a strict homologation process. All those jobs are the responsibility of Charlie Whiting. As of 8 p.m. Saturday night, nothing was being done to put the process into motion, and we understand that while Bernie wants it to happen, there are too many hurdles to be overcome in terms of safety. We understand that Whiting has resisted pressure from Ecclestone to make it happen, comewhat may. The cars are of course equipped with the downforce configuration and gear ratios for the track as it was designed, and they won’t be allowed to change. The only realistic alternative is that the teams opt to run “slowly” through the problematic Turn 13. That is what bemused Ferrari sources suggest they do, anyway, having indicated that there was no way it was going to happen. This story is not yet over, and Sunday at Indy could be the most dramatic and emotionally charged day at any F1 circuit since 1994. __________________ Zerin Dube Managing Editor / Photographer dubspeedMedia Your Source For The Latest Automotive News, Motorsports and Event Coverage http://www.speedsportlife.com

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06-19-2005, 11:10 AM	#2
Mobil1 I bent my wookie. Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Taco Cabana Posts: 19,036 Car: MKV iTrader: (0)	Thats absurd, racing is all about meeting the challenges and overcoming the difficulties that individual tracks present. If the FIA were to give in to team demands it would further prove the point that F1 is a sport composed of overfunded, whiney crybabies. "We dont like this track, change it!" Granted, this is the only roval on the Formula 1 but if a specific tire manufacturer had trouble on Spa-Francorchamps or Magny Cours they wouldnt modify the track lay out just to suit those teams needs. If they dont want to race, thats their problem.

06-19-2005, 01:49 PM	#4
zerinVR6 Automotive News Guy Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Cypress, TX Posts: 2,153 Car: '05.5 Audi A4 2.0T Quattro and Various Press Cars iTrader: (0)	Well, if you aren't watching this "race" you missed one of the most important things to happen in F1 history. After the warmup lap, ALL the Michelin equipped teams pulled off the track in protest and did not run the race. There are SIX cars racing this race. What a joke, they have now set F1 back in the US 10 years.

06-19-2005, 03:32 PM	#5
Ris4Drift pro drift racer Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: conroe / tampa, fl Posts: 2,519 Car: 240sx-r iTrader: (12)	formula d > formula 1

06-19-2005, 04:27 PM	#7
Ris4Drift pro drift racer Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: conroe / tampa, fl Posts: 2,519 Car: 240sx-r iTrader: (12)	there wouldnt have been a situation had not michelin/pansy f1 drivers boycotted usgp lol

06-19-2005, 09:36 PM	#10
azinwood I love AWD!!!1 Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Yahoo!! Posts: 21,398 Car: 2003 G35 Coupe iTrader: (13) Blog Entries: 3	thats some crazy stuff!!

06-20-2005, 02:35 AM	#13
Ris4Drift pro drift racer Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: conroe / tampa, fl Posts: 2,519 Car: 240sx-r iTrader: (12)	well, f1 drivers are kinda pansyish as well, just not relating to this situation. the pansy f1 driver comment was a whole nother thread.

06-20-2005, 04:20 PM	#19
tiedupfool Current Status: Tied up Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Galleria Posts: 19,071 Car: Jeep Grand Cherokee 4x4 iTrader: (24) Blog Entries: 2	I cant say I blame them. They even tried to have tires shipped overnight for the race but that was against FIA rules so they were damned if the do damned if they dont. I feel sorry for the crowd that chunked out about $75-100 a ticket.

06-21-2005, 12:21 AM	#20
conecrazy ‹(•¿•)› Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: houston Posts: 2,921 Car: 97 S14, 03 Pathfinder iTrader: (0)	i wouldn't put the blame solely on michelin. they fessed up to this foul up and made no bones about the fact that they screwed up and that something had to be done for the safety of the drivers. they wanted to fly new tires in for all the teams on race day. but F1 rules say you must use the same set of tires for qualifying and the race and cannot change the tires unless they are punctured or going flat. so then they tried to have an additional chicane put in to slow the cars on the super high speed turn and front straight. FIA said no. secretagent: yeah FIA did offer several solutions but the problem is that it's not a practical way of managing it. it doesn't guarantee the safety of the drivers. when the first michelin driver gets passed by another driver at turn 13, he will try his hardest to regain his position. it would have been a dangerous situation. the chicane was the only logical solution IMHO. and it's not the drivers that decided to boycott. they wanted to race. but the driver is only one part of a team. and it was the team that decided to boycott. the compromise would have been to put the chicane in before T13 and allow bridgestone to take top points. david coultard said it best: “The reality is that mature adults were not able to come to a resolution that would have allowed us to put on the show that everybody wants to see in Formula One, I am so, so sorry for what we’ve done because there was a way out. There was a way to create a solution to let us go racing. Yes, it wasn’t the fault of Bridgestone that Michelin had a problem here, but we are all traveling the same circus together and we are all working together. There has to be a compromise that allows a way of penalizing the Michelin runners and benefiting the Bridgestone runners because of the fault that Michelin had.” screw FIA and bring on GPWC!!!