Democrats Propose $25B Cut of the $700B Bail Out Package for Big 3

[VH_Supra26]

http://img.worldcarfans.com/2008/11/mediumsmall/gm-ford-chrysler-logo.jpg
Democratic Congress friendly to plea for aid from automakers, but the Bush administration still giving the cold shoulder

The CEOs of the Detroit 3 (General Motors, Ford and Chrysler), along with United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger, will be going to Washington next week, hat in hand, and plea for a substantial bailout package.

The leading representatives of the American automotive industry will testify before the U.S. House Financial Services Committee chaired by Democratic House member Barney Frank. Their message will be simple -- help us or calamity awaits.

The Big 3 are asking for a bailout package in the form of 25 billion dollars in emergency loans to keep them afloat through next year, which will likely be one of the worst years the US automotive industry has seen since the Depression. All three Detroit automakers are burning through their cash reserves at an alarming rate as sales collapse in the US market. GM is burning about 2.3 billion a month right now. Ford lost 7.7 billion in the 3rd quarter of this year.

The Democratic Congress is warm to the idea of helping the industry. "A collapse of the American automobile industry would be the worst possible thing that could happen at a time when we are already weakened," Frank told Bloomberg TV, as quoted in a story in the Detroit News.

But the Treasury Secretary of the United States, Henry Paulson, has stuck to the Bush administrations position on the matter, which is that the automotive companies are not eligible for the bailout money since that 700 Billion dollar fund has been earmarked for financial institutions only.

The administration has continued to be skeptical of a bailout package for US automakers and it would be very difficult for the Democratic Congress to pass veto-proof legislation to help the automakers.

It was GM CEO Charles Wilson, who said back in 1955 , "What is good for GM is good for America."

It remains to be seen if the political leadership of the country believe that to be true today.

Copyright 2006-2008 Black Falcon Media Group.

http://www.worldcarfans.com/9081113.016/democrats-propose-25b-cut-of-the-700b-bail-out-package-for-big-3

[DA_LsVtAk]

STOP GIVING THEM MONEY! instead give US buyers coupons to buy new cars if they are going to throw money away like that... jesus christ

[rene]

STOP GIVING THEM MONEY! instead give US buyers coupons to buy new cars if they are going to throw money away like that... jesus christ


do you realize the economic ripple-effect that the big 3 going down would cause?

let me name a few....job losses, unemployment spike, chain-reaction to outside vendors, unemployment checks via government, and a crippled moral of our own economic well being.

big 3 going down would be bad. really bad. you may just see it as "big corporations getting some extra aid" but they---as a microcosm---pretty much represent our country's strength as a whole...

just my .02

[85notch]

STOP GIVING THEM MONEY! instead give US buyers coupons to buy new cars if they are going to throw money away like that... jesus christ

x2
I'd like to use my coupon on the new Camaro

[koolaider]

i hope they get the help they need, it's not good to see those 3 fail. It sucks we're still under bush administration.

[IIIVOVE]

this is capitalism. you live by success, you die by failure. nature of the beast. survival of the fittest. wont be the end of the world. sorry for the job losses and immediate economic impact but may be better in the long run. anyone seriously think the big 3 would last another 10 years?

[Jason Statham]

this is capitalism. you live by success, you die by failure. nature of the beast. survival of the fittest. wont be the end of the world. sorry for the job losses and immediate economic impact but may be better in the long run. anyone seriously think the big 3 would last another 10 years?

exactly. this is the only way for them to restructure the company.

[yourmom25]

i understand there will be massive economic implications to the big 3 going down but bailing them out just allows them to continue producing shitty shitty cars, knowing the govt will give them more free money.

[DA_LsVtAk]

do you realize the economic ripple-effect that the big 3 going down would cause?

let me name a few....job losses, unemployment spike, chain-reaction to outside vendors, unemployment checks via government, and a crippled moral of our own economic well being.

big 3 going down would be bad. really bad. you may just see it as "big corporations getting some extra aid" but they---as a microcosm---pretty much represent our country's strength as a whole...

just my .02


i do realize what kind of economic ripple effect would happen as a result of GM and ford failing. but we live in a capitalist based economy. the consumer is who speaks for the companies who are failing. we obviously dont want their shitty product, hense why they have no money in their banks accounts.

now if they made better cars to begin with they wouldnt be in this situation in the first place.

the combination of $4 a gallon gas prices this summer and horrible cars is whats taking these car companies down. they thought they had a monopoly on the market and now that they cant support themselves .

im sorry but i dont support my hard earned tax dollars going to a car company for charity.

NOW if we got coupons to buy their cars. then it would be a different story because you get more than one beneficiary out of the situation. i dont agree with the point of throwing money into what we all know as a burning money pit.

[al]

"What is good for GM is good for America."

Haha, so nationalize it.

[TXBlackout03]

http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/14/autos/auto_failure_ripple_effect/index.htm?postversion=2008111412


GM failure: The shockwave

CNNMoney.com senior writer
Last Updated: November 14, 2008: 12:36 PM ET

Big 3 in dire straits


NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- If General Motors really does run out of money by the end of the year, as it predicted was possible, the impact would be felt far and wide - to hundreds of suppliers, rival automakers and ultimately dealers across the nation.

"Once the first domino falls, it rapidly takes out all the other dominoes," said Dennis Virag, president of the Automotive Consulting Group.

Suppliers would be among the first to feel those effects since GM only manufactures the body, the engine and the transmission used in its cars.

In the United States alone, GM spends $31 billion on parts from 2,100 different suppliers. These include the "direct suppliers" involved in producing a vehicle - those that provide everything from steering wheels and seatbelts to brakes and airbags - as well as "indirect suppliers" - those that make things such as gloves, protective eyewear, shop rags and lightbulbs.

Although lawmakers appear to be souring on providing a $25 billion bailout to automakers, the impact of a GM failure on the industry as a whole - and therefore the economy as a whole - is weighing heavily in their decisions.

So far this year, 23 major auto-related companies, most of them parts suppliers, have filed for bankruptcy, according to consulting firm Grant Thornton. They are struggling since car makers have cut back as sales have slowed and raw-material prices have risen.

"I would argue that in today's environment, with the stress that's already on the supply base, they can't take another hit," said Kimberly Rodriguez, a principal at Grant Thornton's automotive practice. "The ripple effect would be huge," she added.

Impact on rival car makers
As supplier companies fail, that would have a direct impact on Ford and Chrysler, since the three domestic auto manufacturers share about 70% of their suppliers, Rodriguez estimated.

One executive who works for a Detroit automaker, and who did not want to be named, said the impact of GM - or any of the three - failing would be dramatic and very challenging.

Not all those affected would suffer equally, but it is hard to predict which companies would be hit hardest, because the relationships among the various suppliers and automakers are complex, he said.

Impact on dealers
A GM failure would also affect about 14,000 dealers in the United States, according to the industry newspaper Automotive News. That is almost half of the nation's 29,000 dealerships that specialize in domestic vehicles.

But even if those 14,000 GM dealers also offer foreign cars, the risk of losing their supply of domestic vehicles could force many of them out of business, said Paul Taylor, an economist with the National Automobile Dealers Association. Already, he noted, the industry is expected to lose about 700 dealers by the end of this year, up to 80% of which will be domestic-brand stores.

Car companies are wary of publicly discussing the possibility of financial disaster because it makes it harder to sell the cars that are on dealer lots today, said consultant Virag. Customers don't want to buy from a company they fear may soon be insolvent.

"It's a difficult situation that the automakers are in," said Virag. "To talk about bankruptcy would only exacerbate the situation, but not talking about it isn't helping."

But whether a bankruptcy would help suppliers and everyone dependent upon GM is still uncertain.

If it is determined that GM could file for bankruptcy under Chapter 11 rules, rather than a Chapter 7 liquidation, the automaker could potentially reorganize. That way the company could seek permission to pay outstanding bills to "critical suppliers" that it absolutely needs, said Robert Sanker, a Cleveland bankruptcy attorney who has represented creditors of bankrupt auto suppliers.

Still, Sanker said, relatively few suppliers would be granted "critical supplier" status in court, leaving many more that would have payments cut off.

And GM is says it is not considering Chapter 11, but rather is continuing to seek government assistance. "Bankruptcy reorganization is not an option for GM because it would create more problems than it would solve," said spokesman Dan Flores.

[JDM_06tC]

They should bring back American Motors and combine all three of these 3 companies.

[DA_LsVtAk]

http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/14/autos/auto_failure_ripple_effect/index.htm?postversion=2008111412

womp womp womp

[IIIVOVE]

i love the last paragraph. Instead of the option of plan B (bankruptcy) they're waiting on a gov handout

[uneek]

if there going down they might as well go down now. we can't giving corp money all the time, it's an endless cycle, because they get money, we are still broke, then they still don't sell and lose and the same deal again. create new jobs..?? maglift technology IMO.

[syntheticGT]

Jesus christ...if we are giving 700B away...what the fuck is 25B gonna hurt?

BTW...I DO NOT support this bailout trash going on right now.

[Replica]

BTW...I DO NOT support this bailout trash going on right now.
$25 billion in taxpayer money will be a drop in the bucket compared to the devistation we'll feel if GM goes down. It's a lesser of two evils .

[TXBlackout03]

It's not like they are going to be giving out an extra 25 billion either, its a cut of the 700 billion bailout that was already approved.

[1SikCRX]

yesss can't wait..the big three is gonna go bye bye

[TXBlackout03]

yesss can't wait..the big three is gonna go bye bye

Hey, I really hope one day that the company you work for goes out of business and you have to experience whats its like to not have a job.

[DA_LsVtAk]

Hey, I really hope one day that the company you work for goes out of business and you have to experience whats its like to not have a job.

ive had my experiences not having a job, which is why i found a better one.

its not my fault they work for a shitty company, they obviously made that choice for themselves, if they havent found another career then its not my fault.

its not like this hasn't been foreseen for like damn near 2 years now.

[mikesrex]

we can't continue to reward failure. rewarding failure will prevent success.

if you give the crackhead down the street a dollar every time he asks for money he will never succeed.

[LabtopThief_jr.]

letting them go down could help some other companies to rise up or teach those 3 to re-think their strategies.

[DA_LsVtAk]

letting them go down could help some other companies to rise up or teach those 3 to re-think their strategies.

survival of the fittest

[Replica]

yesss can't wait..the big three is gonna go bye bye
2.5 million jobs are going to be lost. I don't think you understand the gravity of the situation. Not only are GM employees going to lose their jobs, so are companies that do business with them that aren't part of the problem.

Really, 2.5 MILLION people are going to be unemployed.

[ThaJokaa]

yesss can't wait..the big three is gonna go bye bye

ignorance, if the big 3 go down like some one stated earlier thats gonna be a spike in unemployment, so many factories will close and all those people will be jobless with NO MONEY, meanin they cant spend any money, and since were allrdy in a Deep recession(at least i think we are) the UNITED STATES- where u live in- will be fucked and WILL go back to how it was in the 30's, do you really want that??? havin no money and struggling to have a job, and save money???

[DA_LsVtAk]

2.5 million jobs are going to be lost. I don't think you understand the gravity of the situation. Not only are GM employees going to lose their jobs, so are companies that do business with them that aren't part of the problem.

Really, 2.5 MILLION people are going to be unemployed.

i dont think you understand the long term effects of something like that against our economy as a WHOLE, in the sense that the american public doesn't want to pay the paychecks for 2.5 million people who decided it would be good to stay with a car company that is sure to fail. Honestly i feel sympathy for those who work for these automakers. they are good hard working americans, but i know for sure at least half of our countries population isnt going to be happy paying taxes for someone's company to survive on a downward slope.

blame GM on that one, they are refusing to go into chapter 11. but yet are pretty much demanding a bailout.

what next? 50 billion? 100 billion? they are already in DEBT. the money they say they have is digging into stock holders. and please believe thats going to deminish as soon as they realize its time to pull out and invest in something else.. hell ford stocks are 1/4 the price of toyota stock... hmmmmm i wonder what kind of message that sends to consumers...

[DA_LsVtAk]

ignorance, if the big 3 go down like some one stated earlier thats gonna be a spike in unemployment, so many factories will close and all those people will be jobless with NO MONEY, meanin they cant spend any money, and since were allrdy in a Deep recession(at least i think we are) the UNITED STATES- where u live in- will be fucked and WILL go back to how it was in the 30's, do you really want that??? havin no money and struggling to have a job, and save money???

the job unemployment is going to be felt in countries like south korea and china and Malaysia and mexico way more than its going to be felt here in the U.S. we only assemble the parts that they export to us.

[ThaJokaa]

i dont think you understand the long term effects of something like that against our economy as a WHOLE, in the sense that the american public doesn't want to pay the paychecks for 2.5 million people who decided it would be good to stay with a car company that is sure to fail. Honestly i feel sympathy for those who work for these automakers. they are good hard working americans, but i know for sure at least half of our countries population isnt going to be happy paying taxes for someone's company to survive on a downward slope.

blame GM on that one, they are refusing to go into chapter 11. but yet are pretty much demanding a bailout.

what next? 50 billion? 100 billion? they are already in DEBT. the money they say they have is digging into stock holders. and please believe thats going to deminish as soon as they realize its time to pull out and invest in something else.. hell ford stocks are 1/4 the price of toyota stock... hmmmmm i wonder what kind of message that sends to consumers...


i dont think they decided to stay there, probably the only reason that they are still workin there is to get money and are saving it up for what ever happens in the future, i dont think that the 2.5 million workers are so stupid that they dont see the company going down going into debt are might close. so instead of quitin and have no money there being smart and stayin at the job where they HAVE A JOB and are GETTING MONEY until they close and hopefully they dont...

[DA_LsVtAk]

i dont think they decided to stay there, probably the only reason that they are still workin there is to get money and are saving it up for what ever happens in the future, i dont think that the 2.5 million workers are so stupid that they dont see the company going down going into debt are might close. so instead of quitin and have no money there being smart and stayin at the job where they HAVE A JOB and are GETTING MONEY until they close and hopefully they dont...

Im sure a interview with one of their assembly workers would say different. the people who have already left GM for other jobs did so when they saw this almost 2 years ago.

its not like this situation developed over night. GM is obviously promising for a better situation because they are sure they are getting this bailout. but my question is... what next? after the bailout and nothing works? because, I'll guarantee you this.... its not going to work and whoever is left in those companies is going to be SOL

[IIIVOVE]

honda/acura, toyo/lexus, nissan/infiniti.

chevy/pontiac/gmc/buick/saturn/caddy. instead of having 5 different brands (except caddy being the luxo brand) selling the same freakin car, do like the others. all the money they wasted in research/dev/manufacturing the same stuff.

$25 billion now, 6 months another $25 bill, another $25 bill 6 months after that. if you pay those 2.5 million ppl $30K for unemployment for the next year it will equal $75 billion. should be enough time to recover and move on. I do think that restructuring and cutting loss is the way to go for all 3. Cut back on all the different models and sell the stuff ppl want instead of trying to get new buyers with new junk.

I was unemployed for 6 months a few years ago and it was horrible. But you know what, it only motivated me to do more and get into a different industry that is relatively economy proof. i suffered but it made me smarter and more determined. many ppl decide to not be motivated by such things and simply blame themselves or their surroundings and ultimately never go anywhere. this is real change. this is the change that prosperity and the american dream are made of. I chose to change to be better. I never took unemployment benefits. this is the change america needs, not the change obama wants.

[FbodTrek]

if those corporations use the money to stabilize their employees instead of fucking it off, I'm all for it. Wall street would ahve done fine without the "bailout" to begin with IMO.
I'm voting "NO" on principle, but i realize that they will just lay off thousands of blue collar guys like myself regardless. Those executives are covering their own asses and trying to make a clean break IMO.

[seinkonnen]

My only problem with the argument that you shouldn't reward failure is that it's a lot more complicated then just saying these three companies didn't succeed. They got fucked by the unions, their labor costs were tremendously undercut by foreign companies who don't have to follow our strict laws, and big oil fucked everyone over. It's obvious that most American cars have sucked for the past 10-15 years. But to see the direction GM has been heading in should give everyone a lot of hope. Cadillac is actually being taken seriously (for the first time in decades) as an actual luxury company within the same ranks as Mercedes or BMW (and I've owned 4 Mercs, so it's not like I'm blowing smoke out my ass. My mom owns a CTS). Ford has even showed great improvements, and Chrysler managed to stir up a lot of positivity with their Challenger, even if it was at the wrong time.

So while we shouldn't reward failure, we should reward companies like GM for making astronomical improvements over the last couple of years. Plus, GM is one of our greatest hopes for American backed R&D towards energy independence. They truly have some amazing technologies in their back rooms that is just waiting for the appropriate time to come forward.

[DA_LsVtAk]

So while we shouldn't reward failure, we should reward companies like GM for making astronomical improvements over the last couple of years. Plus, GM is one of our greatest hopes for American backed R&D towards energy independence. They truly have some amazing technologies in their back rooms that is just waiting for the appropriate time to come forward.

I know that you know that every import car maker has just as much R&D thats better than GM. If we reward them then we need to reward all the other guys. maybe that will be incentive to mass produce more fuel efficient cars and more performance based platform.

[MoToHeAd125]

If American auto industry fails, then we are no longer an economic superpower. WWIII anyone?

[seinkonnen]

I know that you know that every import car maker has just as much R&D thats better than GM.

Are you kidding me? GM has been ahead of the curve for quite awhile on alternative energies (only in terms of R&D obviously). From hydrogen cars, battery powered and hybrid, to their HCCI engine (http://blog.wired.com/cars/2007/08/gms-hcci-engine.html), GM has been doing everything anyone else has been doing and then some. They're rather late to release their products, but that isn't for a lack of trying. The demand in the US just hasn't been there until recently, so now we're finally starting to see cars like the Volt make into production. Just because you aren't aware of it, doesn't mean GM isn't doing it. People are quick to forget how far ahead GM was in terms of profit a few years back. That money went a long way in terms of emerging technologies, and maybe if GM gets a chance you'll get to see what I'm rambling about.

[syntheticGT]

there wont be a right and wrong to this answer...most of you guys need to be able to see that.

What there will be is a trial and error. Unfortunately I think that error is going to take a good part of the employment percentage with it.

[Narcissistic]

yesss can't wait..the big three is gonna go bye bye

Hey, I really hope one day that the company you work for goes out of business and you have to experience whats its like to not have a job.

Or he gets deported back to the third world country shithole his parents faught tooth and nail to get the fuck out of just so he could come here and bitch online how imports are cooler and faster with vtec.

Are you kidding me? GM has been ahead of the curve for quite awhile on alternative energies (only in terms of R&D obviously). From hydrogen cars, battery powered and hybrid, to their HCCI engine (http://blog.wired.com/cars/2007/08/gms-hcci-engine.html), GM has been doing everything anyone else has been doing and then some. They're rather late to release their products, but that isn't for a lack of trying. The demand in the US just hasn't been there until recently, so now we're finally starting to see cars like the Volt make into production. Just because you aren't aware of it, doesn't mean GM isn't doing it. People are quick to forget how far ahead GM was in terms of profit a few years back. That money went a long way in terms of emerging technologies, and maybe if GM gets a chance you'll get to see what I'm rambling about.

you're really starting to grow on me. =]

[VolksFaggin]

We are BANKRUPT as a country. We have no money for all these bailouts, you people are being suckered into believing we need this.


If we have so much money as to bail out GM, the housing market, the financial market, why is it the G20 summit is happening in a week to talk about the crash of the dollar and try to work out a global currency because nobody is willing to buy dollars anymore?


You dipshits fear what happens when GM fails, how about in 2 years 45 million baby boomers get on soical security and theres on money to cover them. Makes this bullshit minor peanuts in comparison.

[ThaJokaa]

If American auto industry fails, then we are no longer an economic superpower. WWIII anyone?

dude we havnt been an economic suppr power since iono, Japan is the Economic superpower, the only reason WE ARA SUPERPOWER is because we have the best millitary in the world

[DA_LsVtAk]

Are you kidding me? GM has been ahead of the curve for quite awhile on alternative energies (only in terms of R&D obviously). From hydrogen cars, battery powered and hybrid, to their HCCI engine (http://blog.wired.com/cars/2007/08/gms-hcci-engine.html), GM has been doing everything anyone else has been doing and then some. They're rather late to release their products, but that isn't for a lack of trying. The demand in the US just hasn't been there until recently, so now we're finally starting to see cars like the Volt make into production. Just because you aren't aware of it, doesn't mean GM isn't doing it. People are quick to forget how far ahead GM was in terms of profit a few years back. That money went a long way in terms of emerging technologies, and maybe if GM gets a chance you'll get to see what I'm rambling about.


well what i meant was utilizing their R&D, i know they are fairly advanced when it comes to new engine tech. but when i see the same small block push rod v-8 used since the damn 50s it kind of makes me wonder why they dont implement something new in their sports cars. granted even if the LS2 is rated at 400 hp and 26+ highway. (im actually looking at buying a used C6 soon myself). besides the corvette, that is really the only car i feel they have put any serious engineering into to showcase all their acomplishments.


if they had so much money and people in R&D then they should have taken advantage of it while the market was good for them, not after the fact.

[TXBlackout03]

well what i meant was utilizing their R&D, i know they are fairly advanced when it comes to new engine tech. but when i see the same small block push rod v-8 used since the damn 50s it kind of makes me wonder why they dont implement something new in their sports cars. granted even if the LS2 is rated at 400 hp and 26+ highway. (im actually looking at buying a used C6 soon myself). besides the corvette, that is really the only car i feel they have put any serious engineering into to showcase all their acomplishments.


if they had so much money and people in R&D then they should have taken advantage of it while the market was good for them, not after the fact.

This entire post is one gigantic cliche.


Whats next, you're going to comment on the corvette leaf springs right? Do you know how much R&D went into the LS2, not to mention the LS3. The LS2 was a completely ground up redesign.

The only thing that I get from your posts is your an obvious domestic hater. I wonder what your feelings would be if say Honda or Toyota was in the same spot*.





*Which they probably will be if the market doesn't fix itself.

[DA_LsVtAk]

This entire post is one gigantic cliche.


Whats next, you're going to comment on the corvette leaf springs right? Do you know how much R&D went into the LS2, not to mention the LS3. The LS2 was a completely ground up redesign.

The only thing that I get from your posts is your an obvious domestic hater. I wonder what your feelings would be if say Honda or Toyota was in the same spot*.

*Which they probably will be if the market doesn't fix itself.



LOL im not a domestic hater, i hate their leadership there is a BIG difference. the corvette is honestly the only GM car i like. in fact comparing it to other cars is why im actually looking forward to getting one. ive driven my share of domestics, dont get me wrong some of their cars have alot of nice technology in them.

but i dislike their management ethics more than anything, if they reworked their managment structure and got rid of their unions. then i'd take a second look at all of their products.

[TXBlackout03]

LOL im not a domestic hater, i hate their leadership there is a BIG difference. the corvette is honestly the only GM car i like. in fact comparing it to other cars is why im actually looking forward to getting one. ive driven my share of domestics, dont get me wrong some of their cars have alot of nice technology in them.

but i dislike their management ethics more than anything, if they reworked their managment structure and got rid of their unions. then i'd take a second look at all of their products.

So, what is it about the management structure that you're not so keen on? I understand the unions, but not so much the management.

[DA_LsVtAk]

So, what is it about the management structure that you're not so keen on? I understand the unions, but not so much the management.

So much that i dont understand the animosity between the unions and the managment. everything that ive read and heard is pretty much that the company is essentially always in conflict on who has what control, or who can do what and what rights they have over each other. if they cant even work together then they dont deserve to be in business IMO. once they sort that out, take all the government handouts to get back on your feet. but obviously it isnt working so restructure is necessary.

[Flores]

dude we havnt been an economic suppr power since iono, Japan is the Economic superpower, the only reason WE ARA SUPERPOWER is because we have the best millitary in the world

We are a superpower because of the power of our economy, driven by our natural resources, and our industry.

Which we have spent the last 40 years pushing off shore by regulating them to death.

[VolksFaggin]

The only reason why we're a super power is the mighty dollar, which is the world currency currently. We don't have any natural resources we export, our number 1 export is finance services.

We lose our edge by letting the dollar collapse by printing too much and over spending. The only reason we have lasted so long was China was willing to ship their garbage over to us and was willing to accept our dollars. Now they're saying they demand other currencies to trade with us. Its funny, they own more US notes then anybody else but are unwilling to spend them, instead using it for their entire economy. Take that into account when you see the leaders of China saying we need a one world global currency and you have to ask, did we shoot ourselves in the foot by selling away our currency to them.

[darestie]

It seems like those who oppose the bailout seem to have very basic, simplistic ideas about how a modern economy works. The people who are saying positive things about the big three going under need to research a little more and gain a little patriotism. GM, Ford, and Chrysler are one of the foundations of our economy, they set many of the standards for employee relations that still exist today. If they go under, we will all be hurting.

[VolksFaggin]

The people who support the bailout seem to lack the common understanding that this country has NO money, NONE, and we have borrowed against our dollar to the point of collapse.

You want to be patriotic, don't collapse the currency by printing money that has nothing backing it for a private industry. We have no money to bailout the banks, we have no money to bail out the auto industry, we have no money to bail out the housing industry, there is no "Lock Box" to be opened when we need money. We borrow 2 billion a week from china that we have no way to pay back. We have been living WAY beyond our means for WAY too long, running off the expectation of the world to assume our dollar is worth something.

3 million people without a job who are collecting unemployment is nothing compared to having 45 million people jump onto social security when the baby boomers retires in the next few years.


We have no money for this bailout, take your brand loyalty and shove it up your ass. You wanna bail them out, pull out your check book and start a donation fund, this country is broke. Also take that elitist attatude that people don't understand simplistic economics and put it ride beside that brand loyalty.

[Jjona5]

dude we havnt been an economic suppr power since iono, Japan is the Economic superpower, the only reason WE ARA SUPERPOWER is because we have the best millitary in the world


Japan? They are an anglo country economically and they fail when we fail. Japan USED to be a super power...their economy is just as fragile as ours is now. The world superpower right now is parts of the middle east AND China.

[Jjona5]

Oh and one more thing...since the democrats completely rule the country now...pretty much if you see "democrats propose" it pretty much means "democrats passed."

[DA_LsVtAk]

The people who support the bailout seem to lack the common understanding that this country has NO money, NONE, and we have borrowed against our dollar to the point of collapse.

You want to be patriotic, don't collapse the currency by printing money that has nothing backing it for a private industry. We have no money to bailout the banks, we have no money to bail out the auto industry, we have no money to bail out the housing industry, there is no "Lock Box" to be opened when we need money. We borrow 2 billion a week from china that we have no way to pay back. We have been living WAY beyond our means for WAY too long, running off the expectation of the world to assume our dollar is worth something.

3 million people without a job who are collecting unemployment is nothing compared to having 45 million people jump onto social security when the baby boomers retires in the next few years.


We have no money for this bailout, take your brand loyalty and shove it up your ass. You wanna bail them out, pull out your check book and start a donation fund, this country is broke. Also take that elitist attatude that people don't understand simplistic economics and put it ride beside that brand loyalty.
:bowdown:

[VolksFaggin]

ride = right. :wompwomp:

[koolaider]

maybe thats why the detroit lions sucked so much, cause the ford's own that too

[chris200zr]

we can't continue to reward failure. rewarding failure will prevent success.

if you give the crackhead down the street a dollar every time he asks for money he will never succeed.

well said well said.


:ninja:

[koolaider]

we can't continue to reward failure. rewarding failure will prevent success.

if you give the crackhead down the street a dollar every time he asks for money he will never succeed.

wrong! the crackhead is succeeding at what he's doing if you give him money every time he asks for it.

[darestie]

The people who support the bailout seem to lack the common understanding that this country has NO money, NONE, and we have borrowed against our dollar to the point of collapse.

You want to be patriotic, don't collapse the currency by printing money that has nothing backing it for a private industry. We have no money to bailout the banks, we have no money to bail out the auto industry, we have no money to bail out the housing industry, there is no "Lock Box" to be opened when we need money. We borrow 2 billion a week from china that we have no way to pay back. We have been living WAY beyond our means for WAY too long, running off the expectation of the world to assume our dollar is worth something.

3 million people without a job who are collecting unemployment is nothing compared to having 45 million people jump onto social security when the baby boomers retires in the next few years.


We have no money for this bailout, take your brand loyalty and shove it up your ass. You wanna bail them out, pull out your check book and start a donation fund, this country is broke. Also take that elitist attitude that people don't understand simplistic economics and put it ride beside that brand loyalty.

So... you believe we shouldn't bailout banks, auto, and housing. So when the big three collapse you believe it will be ok that 2.5 million people will be out looking for a job all at once, possibly your job. And you believe that its ok that when money gets scarce and people are willing to work for less, people will go further into debt because the housing market has crashed. And you believe that its ok when people try turning to the banks for loans so that they can get back on their feet, only to find that the banks have gone under also. You believe all this is ok, just because the country is a little strapped for cash.

Ok, you just keep on with that attitude, you and the others that have thoughtlessly brought this country down with your egocentric opinions. I suppose i can accept the fact that you are willing to sacrifice millions of other peoples jobs, just so the economy isn't slightly making your life a little harder. I will accept that as long as you understand what you believe in.

[VolksFaggin]

You obviously have reading comprehension problems. Re-read my post, it answer your first question and breaks down WHY a bail out a awful idea.


PS we're not strapped for cash, this country is BROKE. Not just broke, we are in DEBT up to our fucking eyeballs. We have been working for the last 40 years off of the good will of the rest of the world to assume or dollar is worth something (sounds like I have said that before some where).


Let me ask you a question. If you work at McDonalds making 8 dollars a hour and have 200 dollars in the bank and your parents who live in a 250,000 dollar house, the place you lived as a child, where you grew up, was going to be foreclosed because your parents became handicap and rely on you, how would you go about saving that house with no money? Where do you get the cash, just shit it out? I mean you can't let that house go, what will happen to your parents!?

PPS asking the government for a handout is out of the question in this little hypothetical question.

[VolksFaggin]

Another thing, since you seem so SAVVY at economics, maybe you can solve the problem I brought up with Social Security too. Maybe just print more money to cover that too, eh?

[85notch]

if you don't understand why unions are terrible, try working with a union to get anything done..... I have... union workers don't have to care about quality of their work or even their pace... their jobs are guaranteed by the union...
example of how they work.
I have a clothing store.... I am not allowed to assemble the 40 metal sales racks, that is a union job. Now since I care how long it takes (I need them together to hang the clothes) I could put them together in about 10 hours..... Now since it is union, they will assign 2 guys to do the work + a supervisor to supervise 2 things, #1 they work, #2 I don't take the work away from them. The union guys work 8-3:30 NO EXCEPTIONS.... one is high ranking and takes 50 smoke breaks whil ehte other guy is newer and tries to figure out how to put them together (keep in mind I can not help him... that is taking away a union job and is a fineable offense) takes the 3 of them 3 work days to get this done...... And I am not even talking about how much they charged us for the pleasure........ (a super $$$, and the laborers get paid more for time in the union than quality of work)
this is why the Big 3 will go under and why they can not compete in the world auto market.

Now I understand the original reason for unions were to look out for the workers... but they have too much power..... and have gone overboard.... BIG 3... hire non-union workers that fear for their jobs and you will be better off!!!!!

[VolksFaggin]

I personally like Toyota technique of keeping quality up on the assembly line, using wrist bands that keep track items and what a worker is picking up, giving them a buzz if they grab the wrong item.

[darestie]

You obviously have reading comprehension problems. Re-read my post, it answer your first question and breaks down WHY a bail out a awful idea.


PS we're not strapped for cash, this country is BROKE. Not just broke, we are in DEBT up to our fucking eyeballs. We have been working for the last 40 years off of the good will of the rest of the world to assume or dollar is worth something (sounds like I have said that before some where).


Let me ask you a question. If you work at McDonalds making 8 dollars a hour and have 200 dollars in the bank and your parents who live in a 250,000 dollar house, the place you lived as a child, where you grew up, was going to be foreclosed because your parents became handicap and rely on you, how would you go about saving that house with no money? Where do you get the cash, just shit it out? I mean you can't let that house go, what will happen to your parents!?

PPS asking the government for a handout is out of the question in this little hypothetical question.


The country has been in debt for roughly 90 years. We are in debt now an will most likely be in debt for ever. Just because we don't want to go into debt further, doesn't allow our government to stand by and let entire business systems fail. If there was one thing we learned from the great depression, it was that massive government spending can help turn an economy around. No, we shouldn't be giving out handouts and freebies to everyone, we should be helping them to recover, find a new job, and get on, and thats how we need to look at it. I don't want this country to incur more debt either, but it is a necessary evil in times of recession, it may possibly keep us out of another depression.

[darestie]

Now I understand the original reason for unions were to look out for the workers... but they have too much power..... and have gone overboard.... BIG 3... hire non-union workers that fear for their jobs and you will be better off!!!!!


Thats so true, and thats probably one of the main reasons why the big 3 are going under.

[VolksFaggin]

The country has been in debt for roughly 90 years. We are in debt now an will most likely be in debt for ever. Just because we don't want to go into debt further, doesn't allow our government to stand by and let entire business systems fail. If there was one thing we learned from the great depression, it was that massive government spending can help turn an economy around. No, we shouldn't be giving out handouts and freebies to everyone, we should be helping them to recover, find a new job, and get on, and thats how we need to look at it. I don't want this country to incur more debt either, but it is a necessary evil in times of recession, it may possibly keep us out of another depression.


The great depression didn't come about by chance. That was orchestrated by large banks in a power grab of the American people. Its true we have lived beyond our means for 40+ years, but we use to have a dollar that was backed by something more then our good word. Our dollar is losing its steam in the global market, countries are starting to not accept it anymore. If we "go into debt more" aka print more money, it just devalues the dollar even more with hyper inflation.

Nothing is solved when you devalue a currency, maybe you should go ask Rome about that. Its not worth killing a country to save a company.

[DA_LsVtAk]

The great depression didn't come about by chance. That was orchestrated by large banks in a power grab of the American people. Its true we have lived beyond our means for 40+ years, but we use to have a dollar that was backed by something more then our good word. Our dollar is losing its steam in the global market, countries are starting to not accept it anymore. If we "go into debt more" aka print more money, it just devalues the dollar even more with hyper inflation.

Nothing is solved when you devalue a currency, maybe you should go ask Rome about that. Its not worth killing a country to save a company.

we haz gold in fort knox to back it up :gonk:

[VolksFaggin]

The US hasn't had a full audit of all 6 chambers of fort knox for over 50 years.

Plus the amount of gold in there is NO WHERE near the amount of dollars in circulation.

[IIIVOVE]

something i've noticed reading here on HI. most ppl (i don't know you ppl 100%) who are republicans say the ends justify the means. which i agree. while most democrats, the ends do not justify the means.

put into the context of this discussion, republicans say let them fail and our economy will be saved in the long run. democrats say, yes our economy will be saved if we let them fail but we can't let those 2.5 million ppl lose their jobs. they are stuck on the means and not focused on the ends.

[DA_LsVtAk]

The US hasn't had a full audit of all 6 chambers of fort knox for over 50 years.

Plus the amount of gold in there is NO WHERE near the amount of dollars in circulation.

i was being sarcastic... lol

[VolksFaggin]

I know, but others might assume otherwise, just making everything clear. :)

[Jjona5]

The country has been in debt for roughly 90 years. We are in debt now an will most likely be in debt for ever. Just because we don't want to go into debt further, doesn't allow our government to stand by and let entire business systems fail. If there was one thing we learned from the great depression, it was that massive government spending can help turn an economy around. No, we shouldn't be giving out handouts and freebies to everyone, we should be helping them to recover, find a new job, and get on, and thats how we need to look at it. I don't want this country to incur more debt either, but it is a necessary evil in times of recession, it may possibly keep us out of another depression.


Yeah or a GIANT quick war...either way...

[THAIpe_R]

they need to stop those sweat shops and bring back american factories again

[OneArmedScissor]

We are a superpower because of the power of our economy, driven by our natural resources, and our industry.

Which we have spent the last 40 years pushing off shore by regulating them to death.

japan regulates their auto industry to death too. The government essentially still owns all the major companies. The Zaibatsu never really died. The separation is really just an illusion.

[VH_Supra26]

I personally like Toyota technique of keeping quality up on the assembly line, using wrist bands that keep track items and what a worker is picking up, giving them a buzz if they grab the wrong item.

yup, Toyota is good at making $$$

[PissYellowGTi]

The country has been in debt for roughly 90 years. We are in debt now an will most likely be in debt for ever. Just because we don't want to go into debt further, doesn't allow our government to stand by and let entire business systems fail. If there was one thing we learned from the great depression, it was that massive government spending can help turn an economy around. No, we shouldn't be giving out handouts and freebies to everyone, we should be helping them to recover, find a new job, and get on, and thats how we need to look at it. I don't want this country to incur more debt either, but it is a necessary evil in times of recession, it may possibly keep us out of another depression.

What about Enron? Or all of the airlines that keep going under? Why should these car companies be an exception? Why is it our fault foreign car companies have evolved with new fuel-based demands but American ones haven't? I don't see your optimism in Chrysler either. It's evident they don't sell any cars because I never see anyone looking at them when I drive by their lots! So we're supposed to help a company that has been [half] GERMAN owned the past 5 or so years and basically clean up their mistakes? Forget it!! If theres going to be any help given out, it needs to be to GM and Ford and they need to be restricted to building trucks since thats the only thing they can get right.

[TXBlackout03]

What about Enron? Or all of the airlines that keep going under? Why should these car companies be an exception? Why is it our fault foreign car companies have evolved with new fuel-based demands but American ones haven't? I don't see your optimism in Chrysler either. It's evident they don't sell any cars because I never see anyone looking at them when I drive by their lots! So we're supposed to help a company that has been [half] GERMAN owned the past 5 or so years and basically clean up their mistakes? Forget it!! If theres going to be any help given out, it needs to be to GM and Ford and they need to be restricted to building trucks since thats the only thing they can get right.

Yeah, lets totally discount the the CTS, Malibu, Corvette, G8, Sky/Solstice, Turbo Cobalt, Lincoln MKS, Fusion, Euro Focus, and Mondeo.

[DA_LsVtAk]

Yeah, lets totally discount the the CTS, Malibu, Corvette, G8, Sky/Solstice, Turbo Cobalt, Lincoln MKS, Fusion, Euro Focus, and Mondeo.

im down for everything but the corvette, im willing to bet if GM goes under. the vette plant will still be open and that will be chevy's only surviving producing car. since they arent doing so bad with the sales on those right now.

[Jjona5]

I'm thinking Blackout meant those were quality cars...and they shouldnt be discounted as something America got right...

[AltimaGTR]

I voted against. I'd change my tune if this stopped happening: http://wsjclassroom.com/archive/06may/auto2_jobsbank.htm
Money for Nothing
U.S. Car Companies Pay Hundreds of Millions of Dollars in Wages to Idled Workers

By Jeffrey McCracken
Staff Reporter of The Wall Street Journal

In his 34 years working for General Motors, one of Jerry Mellon's toughest assignments came this January.

He spent a week in the "rubber room."

The room is a windowless old storage shed in Flint, Mich. It is filled with long tables, Mr. Mellon says, and has space for about 400 employees. They must arrive at 6 a.m. each day and stay until 2:30 p.m., with 45 minutes off for lunch. A supervisor roams the aisles, signing people out when they want to use the bathroom.

Their job: to do nothing.

This is the Jobs Bank, a two-decade-old program in which nearly 15,000 auto workers continue to get paid after their companies stop needing them. To earn wages and benefits that often top $100,000 a year, the workers must perform some company-approved activity. Many volunteer or go back to school. The rest clock time in the rubber room or something like it.

Cliffs: People get paid to do nothing. Yes I know this was back in 06. I bet nothing's changed though.

[TXBlackout03]

I voted against. I'd change my tune if this stopped happening: http://wsjclassroom.com/archive/06may/auto2_jobsbank.htm
Money for Nothing
U.S. Car Companies Pay Hundreds of Millions of Dollars in Wages to Idled Workers

By Jeffrey McCracken
Staff Reporter of The Wall Street Journal

In his 34 years working for General Motors, one of Jerry Mellon's toughest assignments came this January.

He spent a week in the "rubber room."

The room is a windowless old storage shed in Flint, Mich. It is filled with long tables, Mr. Mellon says, and has space for about 400 employees. They must arrive at 6 a.m. each day and stay until 2:30 p.m., with 45 minutes off for lunch. A supervisor roams the aisles, signing people out when they want to use the bathroom.

Their job: to do nothing.

This is the Jobs Bank, a two-decade-old program in which nearly 15,000 auto workers continue to get paid after their companies stop needing them. To earn wages and benefits that often top $100,000 a year, the workers must perform some company-approved activity. Many volunteer or go back to school. The rest clock time in the rubber room or something like it.

Cliffs: People get paid to do nothing. Yes I know this was back in 06. I bet nothing's changed though.


You know that GM has nothing to do with this right? It was contracts made 50 years ago when Unions has the entire auto industry by the balls and they signed anything to get them to work again.

You want someone to blame for this, go blame the UAW.

[Vinnyman]

You know that GM has nothing to do with this right? It was contracts made 50 years ago when Unions has the entire auto industry by the balls and they signed anything to get them to work again.

You want someone to blame for this, go blame the UAW.
SHUTUP

never speak of the UNION again :( :p

[VolksFaggin]

union