Porsche accuses Nissan GT-R of cheating the 'Ring

[seinkonnen]

Porsche accuses Nissan GT-R of cheating the 'Ring
(http://www.autoblog.com/2008/09/30/porsche-accuses-nissan-gt-r-of-cheating-the-ring/)
Sour grapes or legitimate complaint? That's the question we're left pondering after reading that Porsche believes Nissan must have cheated to record its 7:29:03 lap time of the famed Nürburgring race circuit. Porsche claims that it had been suspicious of the Nissan's lap times, so it acquired a U.S.-spec GT-R for testing back-to-back with its own 911 Turbo and GT2. The result? The mighty Godzilla was toppled by the Teutonic German duo, with the GT-R posting times a good 25-seconds slower than Nissan's claim.

How can Porsche explain the discrepancy? "This wonder car with 7:29 could not have been a regular series production car. For us, it's not clear how this time is possible. What we can imagine with this Nissan is they used other tires," says August Achleitner, the man in charge of the 911 program. There is footage of the GT-R lapping the 'Ring at high speed, but it's taken from inside the car where the tires cannot be seen.

Considering the fact that Nissan saw fit to issue a press release commemorating the car's fast-lap, we doubt this is something that will be taken lightly. There's a big can 'o worms here, and Porsche's in the corner holding the opener.

More details:

Porsche has accused Nissan of cheating in the GT-R's record bid at the Nurburgring racetrack. (http://carsguide.news.com.au/site/motoring-news/story/porsche_accuses_nissan_of_cheating_at_nurburgring/)

Porsche has just run its own back-to-back tests with the Japanese company's GT-R supercar and says it could not get within 25 seconds of Nissan's claimed record time of seven minutes 29 seconds in April.

It also found its 911 Turbo and GT2 were both quicker than the GT-R.

"This wonder car with 7:29 could not have been a regular series production car," says August Achleitner, the 911 product chief for Porsche, speaking to the CARSguide at the Australian press preview of the latest 911 Cabrio.

"For us, it's not clear how this time is possible. What we can imagine with this Nissan is they used other tyres."

He believes the time achieved by Nissan with ex-Formula One driver Toshio Suzuki would only be possible with a semi-slick race-style tyre.

Achleitner says Porsche took a standard GT-R, running on regular road tyres, and ran it around the Nurburgring within two hours of its own cars, on the same day with exactly the same weather conditions.

He says there was no tweaking of any kind and the GT2 and Turbo both ran on regular Porsche road tyres, the Michelin Sport Cup.

"We bought the car in the US. We drove a GT-R with new tyres," he says.

Achleitner was initially protective of the exact lap times, which were run during a program when Porsche also compared its upcoming four-door Panamera with a range of potential rivals.

But he eventually revealed his team clocked the GT-R at 7 minutes 54 seconds, with the 911 Turbo managing 7:38 and the GT2 getting down to 7:34.

The laps were not run by Porsche's usual hot-lap specialist, former world rally champion and race winner Walter Rohrl, but one of the company's chassis development engineers who is an expert on the Nurburgring.

Achleitner says the back-to-back comparison was run because Porsche was concerned by Nissan's claims for the GT-R, which is heavier than the 911 with similar power.

"The Nissan is a good car. I don't want to make anything bad with my words," he says.

"It's a very consistent car. But this car is about 20 kilos heavier than the Turbo . . ."

In the end, Porsche believes its testing has achieved the right lap times for the Skyline GT-R and bench marked it against its own 911 heroes in the right context.

"For us it has been clearly the result. This technical puzzle now fits together. With the other numbers we had problems to understand it," he says.

I am literally rolling on the floor laughing. Nissan is a dirty cheater.

[seinkonnen]

I think all upcoming Nissan GTR tests should be done using off-the-showroom-floor models of the car. I no longer trust any of the press vehicles they issued.

[Drift Gangsta]

i could see if they said this before the gtr was tested vs. other numerous cars and posted fast times around various tracks

sounds like porsche is sour

[Corrosive]

I think all upcoming Nissan GTR tests should be done using off-the-showroom-floor models of the car. I no longer trust any of the press vehicles they issued.

I agree... Even look back at the motor trend tests and the variances. We all know how easy it is to turn the boost up. I still like nissan as a company though, but it just seems they had to "produce" to keep up with the Hype of the GTR and unfortunately they could not keep up with the hype and speculations, so they had to move to "shady" means. In no way is the GTR a bad car as well...

[Mr. Stone]

Would the Spec-V be the actual car they used to run the 7:29 time?

Not defending here, just curious.

[VQuick]

I think all upcoming Nissan GTR tests should be done using off-the-showroom-floor models of the car. I no longer trust any of the press vehicles they issued.

Some of the UK mags used privately owned JDM cars with the speed limiter still on.

Both cars performed rather well, and the car evo had lapped their circuit less than two seconds behind an Enzo. :dunno:

[Replica]

Great thread. Will read again.

[Drift Gangsta]

what does porsche have to say about The Top Gear Track times?

1:19.7 – Nissan GT-R
1:19.8 – Porsche Carrera GT
1:22.3 – Porsche 911 GT3 RS


:hsugh:

this is only proof that porsche finds nissan as a threat

[Jeff Goji]

Sounds like sour grapes to me, and just something else for the fanboys and GT-R haters to argue about. :hsugh:

Let the E-Drama commence! :thumb:

[Corrosive]

what does porsche have to say about The Top Gear Track times?

1:19.7 – Nissan GT-R
1:19.8 – Porsche Carrera GT
1:22.3 – Porsche 911 GT3 RS


:hsugh:

this is only proof that porsche finds nissan as a threat


Wonder where the 911 GT2 would be on that list... Also gotta wonder where the GT-R came from? Was it an overboosted model that they were giving to all the publication people?

[stone_free]

Sounds like sour grapes to me, and just something else for the fanboys and GT-R haters to argue about. :hsugh:

Let the E-Drama commence! :thumb:

couldnt have said it better.

[Agent S14]

oh porsche dont be sad.

[Michael]

I've been waiting for this for a long time.

Hell of a car, but it can't change the laws of physics.

[eN_2_Oh]

Would the Spec-V be the actual car they used to run the 7:29 time?

Not defending here, just curious.
thats what i've been thinking.

either way, the truth will be revealed sooner or later, and we'll see whos lapping who then

[Replica]

Nissan pulled the same thing with the R34. Alot of times couldn't be reproduced by production models.

[ajhehr]

they also tote the fact that each engine is "hand made" and subject to a variance in power... I wouldnt be surprised if the press release car was decked a little more with a nice port and polish

[ajhehr]

what does porsche have to say about The Top Gear Track times?

1:19.7 – Nissan GT-R
1:19.8 – Porsche Carrera GT
1:22.3 – Porsche 911 GT3 RS


:hsugh:

this is only proof that porsche finds nissan as a threat

also in that episode didnt they say that car dynod at like 50hp over advertised?
Nissan surely made sure that there press release cars were "perfect".

with that said Id still have a FD...

[i-vtec195]

the only thing hard to believe is that nissan would be as bold as to risk their credibility to that extent knowing that a 3rd party would try to duplicate(which bmi had at one point).

i'm curious to see what nissan's rebuttal will be. i'm sure we'll find out soon enough.

what does porsche have to say about The Top Gear Track times?

1:19.7 – Nissan GT-R
1:19.8 – Porsche Carrera GT
1:22.3 – Porsche 911 GT3 RS

:hsugh:

this is only proof that porsche finds nissan as a threat

i'd like some clarification on that, too. i find it hard to believe that top gear would rig lap times and risk their credibility to that extent.

[IIIVOVE]

electronically controlled awd pwns

[gismo4]

also in that episode didnt they say that car dynod at like 50hp over advertised?
Nissan surely made sure that there press release cars were "perfect".

with that said Id still have a FD...

if 50 hp is true, it would still not make a notable difference on a twisty track for a nearly 4,000 lb car with production tires (as porsche is claiming).

lol, maybe the porsche driver representative forgot to set the car to 'track' mode. :kekegay:

[gismo4]

i mean, if nissan REALLY wants to make a statement in the racing world, they'll step up to these claims. have a gtr inspected and accepted to run and then have their same driver duplicate their 7:29ish run. that would make porsche look really bad. i wonder what will come of this.

[i-vtec195]

i mean, if nissan REALLY wants to make a statement in the racing world, they'll step up to these claims. have a gtr inspected and accepted to run and then have their same driver duplicate their 7:29ish run. that would make porsche look really bad. i wonder what will come of this.

probably nothing other than legitimacy. it'd definitely be favorable to them to do so.

[pizzaguy]

they also tote the fact that each engine is "hand made" and subject to a variance in power... I wouldnt be surprised if the press release car was decked a little more with a nice port and polish

Having "hand built" as an excuse doesn't cut it for me. I'm not taking sides on if the upped to boost a bit or not but look at the other cars and manufactures that hand build their motors ex: Z06,Zr1,Ferrari etc. Not to sure on AMG and the SRT 10 though.

[Poonkla]

The problem is that only magazine racers on car forums will care/ever see this. It's one thing if Porsche took out some full page ads in major car magazines and called out Nissan, and it's another by putting out a press release.

[french fries]

Ah yes, the old "We couldn't do it, so therefore they couldn't possibly have done it either," argument. I think Porsche needs some basic high school level lessons in critical thinking.

[_Zac]

Nissan bold faced lied, and anyone with half a brain knew it from the get go.

Sorry fan boys, but this car has been busted over and over. They will never pull that time in a production car PERIOD, and that's why they wont try to prove it.

[mikesrex]

Ah yes, the old "We couldn't do it, so therefore they couldn't possibly have done it either," argument. I think Porsche needs some basic high school level lessons in critical thinking.

I'm pretty sure Porsche is a little more familiar with racing around a track than Nissan.

[Replica]

I'm pretty sure Porsche is a little more familiar with racing around a track than Nissan.
I'm not even going to bother responding to posts implying that Porsche folks don't know how to drive or understand the complexity of motorsports.

[super cirrus]

what does porsche have to say about The Top Gear Track times?

1:19.7 – Nissan GT-R
1:19.8 – Porsche Carrera GT
1:22.3 – Porsche 911 GT3 RS


:hsugh:

this is only proof that porsche finds nissan as a threat

Did they buy a GTR and test it, or did they borrow one from nissan's test fleet? Thats what porsche is saying.

[Michael]

Ah yes, the old "We couldn't do it, so therefore they couldn't possibly have done it either," argument. I think Porsche needs some basic high school level lessons in critical thinking.

I think you need some basic high school level lessons in critical thinking, do you have any fucking clue how much 25 seconds means on a track?

[battousai]

Didn't Porsche also do something similar in nature when the BMW V8 M3s were kicking their ass in the Le Mans?

[TheMutt]

what does porsche have to say about The Top Gear Track times?

1:19.7 – Nissan GT-R
1:19.8 – Porsche Carrera GT
1:22.3 – Porsche 911 GT3 RS


:hsugh:

this is only proof that porsche finds nissan as a threat

I wouldn't take Top Gear for anything but entertainment. Their testing, as far as I've seen, takes place regardless of condition of the vehicle, track, or weather. For that reason I've noticed quite a few times that might not be far off, but you know they could have been better. I never watched them record times for any of the aforementioned cars, but like I said, I wouldn't take their word for it.

With all that said, 25 second difference is quite a big gap, I bet it has something to do with the nissan and porsche tests combined.

[Mr. Stone]

Nissan bold faced lied, and anyone with half a brain knew it from the get go.

Spoken from an industry insider.:hsugh:

I'm a GM guy so I'm not really taking sides, but I don't think it's as black and white as you think it is. However, Nissan isn't the only ones who have dooped the public. *cough* FORD COBRA! *cough*.

[nacho_nissan]

why do the people who hate nissan always side with everyone else in every nissan comparo?

all you chevy butt hurt fan boys dont realize that nissan had batter suspension since the legendary Z was 1st out.

the corvette was still rolling on leaf springs around this time.. haha.


nissan's AWD system has been out since 1989, owning it up since the 1st GT-R r32 was on the track. so today, almost 20 years later, im sure the system should be damn near perfection, the car has more power than nissan advertises, and if you consider this car has been in development since late 90's,
what is so hard to believe about the Gt-R doing good at the ring?

[koolaider]

why do the people who hate nissan always side with everyone else in every nissan comparo?

all you chevy butt hurt fan boys dont realize that nissan had batter suspension since the legendary Z was 1st out.

the corvette was still rolling on leaf springs around this time.. haha.


nissan's AWD system has been out since 1989, owning it up since the 1st GT-R r32 was on the track. so today, almost 20 years later, im sure the system should be damn near perfection, the car has more power than nissan advertises, and if you consider this car has been in development since late 90's,
what is so hard to believe about the Gt-R doing good at the ring?
cause it's a nissan and not a porsche.

[seinkonnen]

nissan had batter suspension since the legendary Z was 1st out.

Mmm. Hand battered suspension.

I was going to respond to your comment but it was all nonsense. Other then the batter part. That made sense.

[mikesrex]

all you chevy butt hurt fan boys dont realize that nissan had batter suspension since the legendary Z was 1st out.

exactly what did the Z do when it was first out to make it so legendary? I mean I can name off countless things that the '67 L88 'vette did, but I can't recall anything legendary the Z has done.


nissan's AWD system has been out since 1989 ............im sure the system should be damn near perfection

if the AWD system is so perfect, then why can't a souped up GTR on slicks beat a ZR1 in stock form on all-season tires around the 'ring?

[nightracer]

I accuse Nissan of running Formula 1 slicks, a Porsche motor, a 200 shot, twin G32R's and dog box in the GTR that raun the 'ring. :o


I knew it was too good to be true :gonk:

[OneArmedScissor]

The problem is that only magazine racers on car forums will care/ever see this. It's one thing if Porsche took out some full page ads in major car magazines and called out Nissan, and it's another by putting out a press release.

I saw plenty of prototypes, including a porsche prototype on my first trip to the ring.

I'll be back again, most likely, this summer, in an open top race car.
So, I suppose that magazine racers on car forums, and people like me who waste money on driving experiences abroad, will care.

I'm still crossing my fingers on taking European delivery on a one series in 2 years and taking that to the ring as well.

[OneArmedScissor]

exactly what did the Z do when it was first out to make it so legendary? I mean I can name off countless things that the '67 L88 'vette did, but I can't recall anything legendary the Z has done.



if the AWD system is so perfect, then why can't a souped up GTR on slicks beat a ZR1 in stock form on all-season tires around the 'ring?

the ring favors lighter weight and more manuverable cars. As amazing as the GTR is, the ring lacks proper racing tarmac and so the AWD is the least it can do to push itself around.

I know the Vette has always been fairly lightweight despite "looking" large (it weighs less than a subaru STi, if I remember!) so I'm guessing the ZR1 is no exception and no less impressive (a LOT more IMO) than the last ZR1 was at the time that it came out.


I remember, as a kid, when my buddy's dad bought a ZR1 and brought it over to my house from the dealership. One of the cooler "car nerd" days of my life. :)

[go!tc]

didn't expect nissan to do something like this. Would still love to own one though.

[OneArmedScissor]

I'm not terribly surprised that something so heavy would have trouble.

I know that heavier cars are a chore on the ring, so I can only assume that they are usually slower. The ring involve a tremendous amount of altitude change. This usually rewards the lighter vehicles exponentially.

[chris200zr]

I saw plenty of prototypes, including a porsche prototype on my first trip to the ring.

I'll be back again, most likely, this summer, in an open top race car.
So, I suppose that magazine racers on car forums, and people like me who waste money on driving experiences abroad, will care.

I'm still crossing my fingers on taking European delivery on a one series in 2 years and taking that to the ring as well.

the 1-series is going to be a badddddd little car, no doubt about it. Looking to put a pre-order on one when I get out of school. Maybe a M if BMW decides its not fast enough.....OOOoooOoo


Shame on you Nissan. :nono:

[TXBlackout03]

Told you all.

[nacho_nissan]

if the AWD system is so perfect, then why can't a souped up GTR on slicks beat a ZR1 in stock form on all-season tires around the 'ring?

:hsugh: maybe because it has 200hp more...

i want to see a 480hp vette battle a GT-R
or better yet, a 640hp GT-R battle a ZR1... then it would be very interesting.

[mikesrex]

:hsugh: maybe because it has 200hp more...

last I heard the ZR-1 didn't come with 200 more HP than a GTR. I'd be willing to bet the GTR Nissan used to cheat with had a very similar power level to the current ZR1.

i want to see a 480hp vette battle a GT-R
or better yet, a 640hp GT-R battle a ZR1... then it would be very interesting.

really why don't you stock nut-hugging the GTR. Sure it's a great car, but Nissan misled everyone with their results to look "better" in the eyes of potential customers. that is the point here. not how good or bad the car is, but that cheating part.

And it looks like a near-480 HP vette (the Z06 is very close to 480 at 505, and since the GTR is underrated, it makes them a good matchup) has already beat the stock GTR that Porsche used for testing on the ring btw.

[Apx_632]

if 50 hp is true, it would still not make a notable difference on a twisty track for a nearly 4,000 lb car with production tires (as porsche is claiming).

lol, maybe the porsche driver representative forgot to set the car to 'track' mode. :kekegay:

Nissan flat out LIED about the time period. The car was in no way stock. It is not so good around a track that it's running times better then a GT-2 porsche, and within 3 seconds of an acr viper and zr-1 corvette. As far as porsche's driver, if it was the gentlemen who does ALL of porsche's testing (Walter Rohrl) no driver knows the ring better.

I have no doubts that the GT-R is a fine automobile. I've seen em in person twice and they are stunning to look at. But they are not near as fast as claimed.

[azinwood]

doesnt bother me.

won't stop me from owning one.

[Mr. Stone]

Just to throw this out there...

R&T Ultimate Track Test

Cars:
Corvette Z06
Lambo LP560-4
Ashton Martin DBS
Porsche 911 GT2
Nissan GT-R
Viper ACR
Audi R8
BMW M3
Lotus Exige S240
Mistu Evo X MR

4 Tracks- 4 Drivers:

El Toro Autocross- Gary Thomason 8-time SCCA
1. Viper ACR
2. Lambo LP560-4
3. 911 GT2
4. Nissan GT-R
5. Audi R8
6. Corvette Z06
7. Lotus S240
8. Aston Martin DBS
9. BMW M3 Coupe
10. Mistu EVO MR

Streets of Willow- Steve Millen 2-time IMSA
1. Lambo LP560-4
2. Viper ACR
3. Nissan GT-R
4. 911 GT2
5. Audi R8
6. Corvette Z06
7. Aston Martin DBS
8. BMW M3 Coupe
9. Lotus S240
10. Mistu Evo MR

WIllow Springs IR- Steve Millen
1. Viper ACR
2. Nissan GT-R
3. Lambo LP560-4
4. Audi R8
5. 911 GT2
6. Corvette Z06
7. Aston Martin DBS
8. BMW M3
9. Lotus S240
10. Mistu Evo MR

Auto Club Speedway (The Oval)- Roger Yasukawa Indy Car Driver
1. 911 GT2
2. Nissan GT-R
3. Lambo LP560-4
4. Viper ACR
5. Audi R8
6. Aston Martin DBS
7. Corvette Z06
8. BMW M3
9. Mistu Evo MR
10. Lotus S240

[Mr. Stone]

I just think its peculiar that a) Porsche does its own independent testing and everybody just excepts that as gospel, b) if Nissan has been handing out "fixed" cars to reviewers- see above- wouldn't we have heard something by now? Aren't there production GTR's already on the road?

So a Porsche driver couldn't get it around the track as fast as a driver whose intimately familiar with the car? It's not Willow Springs. The Green Hell is long track. Plenty of time to lose time.

Like I said. I get the feeling it isn't as black and white as some of you think. In the media, it rarely is.

[Replica]

I just think its peculiar that a) Porsche does its own independent testing and everybody just excepts that as gospel.
Didn't everyone accept Nissan's time without question?

[dinh]

Didn't everyone accept Nissan's time without question?

lmao!

[VQuick]

Nissan flat out LIED about the time period. The car was in no way stock. It is not so good around a track that it's running times better then a GT-2 porsche, and within 3 seconds of an acr viper and zr-1 corvette. As far as porsche's driver, if it was the gentlemen who does ALL of porsche's testing (Walter Rohrl) no driver knows the ring better.

I have no doubts that the GT-R is a fine automobile. I've seen em in person twice and they are stunning to look at. But they are not near as fast as claimed.

It wasn't. They used an engineer who is a 'Nurburgring expert.' So why not use Walter Rohrl, the driver that actually did the development driving for the 911 Turbo and GT2? Rohrl is probably faster in the Turbo and GT2 than this engineer, and by extension, would probably have run faster than a 7:54 in the GT-R. That's just one of the issues I have with Porsche's results.

They also state that they used 'street tires' for the GT-R. Which ones? There are up to four tire choices, depending on what market the GT-R is sold in(two summer, one all-season, one winter, I think).

What settings were used for the GT-R's suspension? Transmission? Did they use the paddle shifters, or just leave it in full auto? Where did they get the GT-R from, since they aren't available for European sale yet? If it was a JDM model, how did they defeat the limiter? What kind of condition was it in?

I'm not saying that Porsche is lying, far from it. They're just leaving out some rather important details that would help complete the picture.

Now if Porsche used an engineer that seems to be slower than Rohrl, and the car was equipped with the summer Bridgestone tires(used on the claimed 7:39 lap), then I could see them getting close to a 7:54 lap. I don't deny that. Like I said, however, we need some more details...from both Porsche and Nissan.

[Mr. Stone]

Didn't everyone accept Nissan's time without question?

Well, not really. Not everyone, at least. We've had whole threads that argued that time. So technically no.

For those that did you make a good point, but that doesn't change the fact that Porsche did in house testing and didn't mention anything else except that they claim they couldn't get Nissan's Nurburgring time.

You don't think that's a bit vague?

[Mr. Stone]

I'm not saying that Porsche is lying, far from it. They're just leaving out some rather important details that would help complete the picture.

Exactly.

Dinh, if you're going to laugh, at least explain why. Read above post.

[Replica]

Well, not really. Not everyone, at least. We've had whole threads that argued that time. So technically no.

For those that did you make a good point, but that doesn't change the fact that Porsche did in house testing and didn't mention anything else except that they claim they couldn't get Nissan's Nurburgring time.

You don't think that's a bit vague?
I'm thinking Porsche has a little experience running cars on the ring. I don't know what's questionable about them stating they couldn't match Nissan's time. I wouldn't suspect they'd cripple the car further from stock just to make a point.

The GTR is zero threat to the Porsche empire. If I were looking for a Porsche I wouldn't be cross-shopping a Nissan. Cars don't sell based on ring lap times. I have yet to see the ring times on the window sticker next to the other features of the car. :Goofy:

[inferno14u]

Well, not really. Not everyone, at least. We've had whole threads that argued that time. So technically no.

For those that did you make a good point, but that doesn't change the fact that Porsche did in house testing and didn't mention anything else except that they claim they couldn't get Nissan's Nurburgring time.

You don't think that's a bit vague?

Thank you. And lets not forget that there was another 7:29 that wasn't run by Nissan. This debate will go on forever and I don't think it will change any minds on the people who are going to end up buying them anyways.

[VQuick]

I'm thinking Porsche has a little experience running cars on the ring. I don't know what's questionable about them stating they couldn't match Nissan's time. I wouldn't suspect they'd cripple the car further from stock just to make a point.

The GTR is zero threat to the Porsche empire. If I were looking for a Porsche I wouldn't be cross-shopping a Nissan. Cars don't sell based on ring lap times. I have yet to see the ring times on the window sticker next to the other features of the car. :Goofy:

So why not put forth their best effort and use their best driver? Walter Rohrl is a rally champion(among other things) and practically a god at the Nurburgring. He's also responsible for most recent Porsche models, at least as far back as the 996 generation. I first heard about him in a Top Gear mag feature back in '99 or '00, and have been a fan ever since.

Rohrl was the development driver for the Carrera GT, and stated that it needed a two-stage(wet and dry) traction control system. Porsche listened to him. He also piloted the 997 GT2 to better laps at the 'Ring than the Carrera GT. If there was anyone from Porsche who should have been driving those cars, it'd be him. Yet they didn't for some reason.

That alone raises some red flags in my mind.

[inferno14u]

So why not put forth their best effort and use their best driver? Walter Rohrl is a rally champion(among other things) and practically a god at the Nurburgring. He's also responsible for most recent Porsche models, at least as far back as the 996 generation. I first heard about him in a Top Gear mag feature back in '99 or '00, and have been a fan ever since.

Rohrl was the development driver for the Carrera GT, and stated that it needed a two-stage(wet and dry) traction control system. Porsche listened to him. He also piloted the 997 GT2 to better laps at the 'Ring than the Carrera GT. If there was anyone from Porsche who should have been driving those cars, it'd be him. Yet they didn't for some reason.

That alone raises some red flags in my mind.

Because wouldn't it suck if he actually broke the 7:29 mark further making the GTR look like a performance bargin compared to their cars?

[Replica]

So why not put forth their best effort and use their best driver? Walter Rohrl is a rally champion(among other things) and practically a god at the Nurburgring.
I don't know. Maybe schedule conflicts?
Because wouldn't it suck if he actually broke the 7:29 mark further making the GTR look like a performance bargin compared to their cars?
Porsche customers are not cross-shopping GTR's. If they were both the same price and the GTR was faster on some racetrack I'll never see in my life, it would not effect the purchase. I'd stil buy a Porsche.

[dantheman]

I'm thinking Porsche has a little experience running cars on the ring. I don't know what's questionable about them stating they couldn't match Nissan's time. I wouldn't suspect they'd cripple the car further from stock just to make a point.

The GTR is zero threat to the Porsche empire. If I were looking for a Porsche I wouldn't be cross-shopping a Nissan. Cars don't sell based on ring lap times. I have yet to see the ring times on the window sticker next to the other features of the car. :Goofy:
exactly.

porsche didnt do this because they were butthurt the GTR was faster, but because nissan has slammed their cars saying how they made one for half the price that is faster. porsche wouldnt have the shit talking so they tired to prove it.

and as for details left out, they said they brought a US spec GTR to germany.

if people seriously think that a 485hp car on summer performance tires that weighs 3800lbs went within 3 seconds of a 600+hp 3000lb car with pilot sports (or within 10 seconds of the viper with full aero, r compounds) they are being delusional.

GTR is a fine car and it performs really well. but nissan has been and will always be full of shit regarding it. especially trying to say why the cars dyno so high because they have a really effecient drivetrain that doesnt lose but 6-8%. really? less than a FWD car that has half the drivetrain. i cant beleive the fanboys are getting so deep into the shit that they believe that.

[VQuick]

Because wouldn't it suck if he actually broke the 7:29 mark further making the GTR look like a performance bargin compared to their cars?

True, but that's the nature of competition. Porsche would just have to come up with something better.

Don't dumb down the results with a different driver. It made the Turbo and GT2 that were tested look slower too.

[VQuick]

exactly.

porsche didnt do this because they were butthurt the GTR was faster, but because nissan has slammed their cars saying how they made one for half the price that is faster. porsche wouldnt have the shit talking so they tired to prove it.

and as for details left out, they said they brought a US spec GTR to germany.

if people seriously think that a 485hp car on summer performance tires that weighs 3800lbs went within 3 seconds of a 600+hp 3000lb car with pilot sports (or within 10 seconds of the viper with full aero, r compounds) they are being delusional.

GTR is a fine car and it performs really well. but nissan has been and will always be full of shit regarding it. especially trying to say why the cars dyno so high because they have a really effecient drivetrain that doesnt lose but 6-8%. really? less than a FWD car that has half the drivetrain. i cant beleive the fanboys are getting so deep into the shit that they believe that.

So we know where the car comes from, and that narrows it down to three possible tire choices. All-season Dunlops, summer Dunlops or summer Bridgestones?

How about tranny and suspension settings?

[Toybox]

Looks like they met their match. Porsche is sour.

[Mr. Stone]

The GTR is zero threat to the Porsche empire. If I were looking for a Porsche I wouldn't be cross-shopping a Nissan. Cars don't sell based on ring lap times. I have yet to see the ring times on the window sticker next to the other features of the car.

I couldn't agree with you more.

I also wasn't saying that Porsche crippled the car. I just don't think they set it up for optimal use. You can tell the truth and still leave out the details. We all know what suspension tweaks and a driver mod can do to lap times.

I don't think that either company is lying. Seems an aweful big risk to take on your reputation as a car maker. I think there are facts being left out on both sides of the coin here.

[Michael]

I don't know. Maybe schedule conflicts?

Porsche customers are not cross-shopping GTR's. If they were both the same price and the GTR was faster on some racetrack I'll never see in my life, it would not effect the purchase. I'd stil buy a Porsche.

As a Porsche owner and member of 6speedonline [tons of high end cars/Porsches] where there's been a constant debate of GT-R versus 997 turbo going since the creation of the GT-R, I can tell you that we do indeed cross-shop GT-Rs. There are probably 4 or 5 guys that own and drive both, sharing their input with the world.

It's not a piece of shit, but, like I said before, it can't defy physics.

[TXBlackout03]

GT-http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b102/XCPuff/emot-argh-1.gif

[dantheman]

So we know where the car comes from, and that narrows it down to three possible tire choices. All-season Dunlops, summer Dunlops or summer Bridgestones?

How about tranny and suspension settings?
did the porsches have stability on or off? traction control on or off? DSG cars or manual cars. carbon ceramic brakes or no? etc etc

there are variables on both sides.

your wet dream wasnt able to reproduce the times that they claimed. i seriously doubt porsche would run it in auto mode with all the shit on street settings. what i beleive without issue is that nissan built the car and tried to make it awesome and then then they tested it, didnt come close to their target. so the skewed the hardware to make it work.

no one has ever said its a piece of shit or stupid car. just that we dont believe what nissan said.

[Replica]

As a Porsche owner and member of 6speedonline [tons of high end cars/Porsches] where there's been a constant debate of GT-R versus 997 turbo going since the creation of the GT-R, I can tell you that we do indeed cross-shop GT-Rs. There are probably 4 or 5 guys that own and drive both, sharing their input with the world.

It's not a piece of shit, but, like I said before, it can't defy physics.
Interesting. Thanks for the clarification.

What is their current input on this silly debate?

[VQuick]

did the porsches have stability on or off? traction control on or off? DSG cars or manual cars. carbon ceramic brakes or no? etc etc

there are variables on both sides.

your wet dream wasnt able to reproduce the times that they claimed. i seriously doubt porsche would run it in auto mode with all the shit on street settings. what i beleive without issue is that nissan built the car and tried to make it awesome and then then they tested it, didnt come close to their target. so the skewed the hardware to make it work.

no one has ever said its a piece of shit or stupid car. just that we dont believe what nissan said.

Not just variables, but details, simple information. Both sides are missing some.

Let's not get into name-calling here. Porsche started out with a nice investigation in mind, but the jury is truly out until they can provide some of the crucial details I mentioned.

Again, I'm not saying Porsche is wrong, but when journos can run a test lap four seconds faster on a slightly wet track, it looks a bit suspect.
http://2009gtr.blogspot.com/2007/11/sport-auto-test-2009-gt-r-at.html

[gismo4]

Not just variables, but details, simple information. Both sides are missing some.

Let's not get into name-calling here. Porsche started out with a nice investigation in mind, but the jury is truly out until they can provide some of the crucial details I mentioned.

Again, I'm not saying Porsche is wrong, but when journos can run a test lap four seconds faster on a slightly wet track, it looks a bit suspect.
http://2009gtr.blogspot.com/2007/11/sport-auto-test-2009-gt-r-at.html

^^^ nice article. i'm going to remain neutral until this thing sorts out. people just need to remember, innocent until proven guilty.

[Mr. Stone]

^^^ nice article. i'm going to remain neutral until this thing sorts out. people just need to remember, innocent until proven guilty.

Burden of proof is on the one's making the accusation.

[VQuick]

^^^ nice article. i'm going to remain neutral until this thing sorts out. people just need to remember, innocent until proven guilty.

All Porsche needed was a few more details to put the nails in the coffin. Why are they holding them back? Just tell us the tires and settings. It's not that hard.

Depending on the tires, a 7:54 would almost make sense with the driver they used.

[VashThaStampede]

I'm pretty sure Porsche is a little more familiar with racing around a track than Nissan.

you're too quick to dismiss nissans rep built apon datsun and the acquisition of prince, which is where they got the skyline models..
not defending nissan, just sayin...they've both been contenders in the global scene for a long time..




Beginnings of Datsun name from 1914
Nissan name first used in 1930s
Nissan Motors founded in 1934

porsche founded in 1931.

[dantheman]

Not just variables, but details, simple information. Both sides are missing some.

Let's not get into name-calling here. Porsche started out with a nice investigation in mind, but the jury is truly out until they can provide some of the crucial details I mentioned.

Again, I'm not saying Porsche is wrong, but when journos can run a test lap four seconds faster on a slightly wet track, it looks a bit suspect.
http://2009gtr.blogspot.com/2007/11/sport-auto-test-2009-gt-r-at.html

get out your tin foil hat for that comparo too. did they have the porsche's settings correct for that style of driving or no? which tires was the porsche on? a more race oriented tire is going ot have less traction in teh wet than a all season tire on a gtr etc etc.


your arguement is moot and goes right back ontop of itself with everything you post.

[VQuick]

get out your tin foil hat for that comparo too. did they have the porsche's settings correct for that style of driving or no? which tires was the porsche on? a more race oriented tire is going ot have less traction in teh wet than a all season tire on a gtr etc etc.


your arguement is moot and goes right back ontop of itself with everything you post.

Sport Auto was just test driving a GT-R at that time. No Porsches were involved. 404 Error: Comparo not found. :hsugh:

Way to miss the point. :down:

[dantheman]

Sport Auto was just test driving a GT-R at that time. No Porsches were involved. 404 Error: Comparo not found. :hsugh:

Way to miss the point. :down:
you are missing the point as well so we minus whale have some maragaritas and beers cause its a miss the point party.

[mista_chewey]

minus whale?
you're taking away a whale?

[dantheman]

minus whale?
you're taking away a whale?
yep no more GTR discussion. :)

[dumpSTAR]

sore losers!!

[Drift Gangsta]

Porsche says that the GTR could not have lapped nurburgring in 7:29 without using semi-slick tires, BUT then what about all the other magazine test and top gear's test?

the GTR was faster than the 911 turbo in all comparisons

seriously people, dont you think that all these magazines and Top Gear who tested the GTR would have commented on if the GTR had semi-slicks during the test????

I KNOW Jeremy Clarkson would have told veiwers if the GTR tested around the top gear track was equiped with semi-slicks

face it. Porsche is sour because they wont except the fact that nissan, the car company that beat them around nurburgring in 1989 with the r32 skyline gtr, beat thier beloved sports car yet again

[dinh]

Exactly.

Dinh, if you're going to laugh, at least explain why. Read above post.

because even on an import forum, nissan's time was far from being unquestioned. any thread where someone whispers "gt-r", a storm of biased fanboys and haters (with a few exceptions) come in and argue in circles for hundreds of pages.

[NOPISTN]

sooo, is it actually proven that nissan got crunk with the boost on media vehicles?

[trill]

sooo, is it actually proven that nissan got crunk with the boost on media vehicles?

:rofl: I like your wording.

[Apx_632]

It wasn't. They used an engineer who is a 'Nurburgring expert.' So why not use Walter Rohrl, the driver that actually did the development driving for the 911 Turbo and GT2? Rohrl is probably faster in the Turbo and GT2 than this engineer, and by extension, would probably have run faster than a 7:54 in the GT-R. That's just one of the issues I have with Porsche's results.

They also state that they used 'street tires' for the GT-R. Which ones? There are up to four tire choices, depending on what market the GT-R is sold in(two summer, one all-season, one winter, I think).

What settings were used for the GT-R's suspension? Transmission? Did they use the paddle shifters, or just leave it in full auto? Where did they get the GT-R from, since they aren't available for European sale yet? If it was a JDM model, how did they defeat the limiter? What kind of condition was it in?

I'm not saying that Porsche is lying, far from it. They're just leaving out some rather important details that would help complete the picture.

Now if Porsche used an engineer that seems to be slower than Rohrl, and the car was equipped with the summer Bridgestone tires(used on the claimed 7:39 lap), then I could see them getting close to a 7:54 lap. I don't deny that. Like I said, however, we need some more details...from both Porsche and Nissan.

You bring up some very nice points.

[Michael]

Interesting. Thanks for the clarification.

What is their current input on this silly debate?

My favorite dual owner tossed mods on his GT-R right away, and set up a drag race. With exhaust and a chip he's putting down >100+ more hp and it's not even a race with his 997tt. Now he's throwing a GIAC tune and exhaust on his p-car to see what happens.

I think 2 of the owners took their GT-Rs out on track and will never do it again. The consensus is "hey, this is a cool toy," but I haven't seen anyone post up that they're seriously considering tracking the car. This probably has as much to do with RR bias for driving as it does for the GT-R fatness.

I'd wait for the novelty to wear off and we'll truly see if it's more than just a toy to play with.

On a side note, there's a white one on campus [in Dallas] with dealer plates. They don't keep the car clean, but FYI, when that car is dirty, it looks like a fucking piece of flan. Color means everything with that car.

[Michael]

Porsche says that the GTR could not have lapped nurburgring in 7:29 without using semi-slick tires, BUT then what about all the other magazine test and top gear's test?

the GTR was faster than the 911 turbo in all comparisons

seriously people, dont you think that all these magazines and Top Gear who tested the GTR would have commented on if the GTR had semi-slicks during the test????

I KNOW Jeremy Clarkson would have told veiwers if the GTR tested around the top gear track was equiped with semi-slicks

face it. Porsche is sour because they wont except the fact that nissan, the car company that beat them around nurburgring in 1989 with the r32 skyline gtr, beat thier beloved sports car yet again


No, you face it. a 1:19 track has NOTHING FUCKING TO do with the ring. Read their fucking list for more aberrations.

Figure out through youtube which cars were tested in what conditions and you'll understand.

[Michael]

OH man I'm about to go jack off to some GT-R photos. My spunk is going to defy physics like the GT-R and rebirth Christ.

[VQuick]

Porsche says that the GTR could not have lapped nurburgring in 7:29 without using semi-slick tires, BUT then what about all the other magazine test and top gear's test?

the GTR was faster than the 911 turbo in all comparisons

seriously people, dont you think that all these magazines and Top Gear who tested the GTR would have commented on if the GTR had semi-slicks during the test????

I KNOW Jeremy Clarkson would have told veiwers if the GTR tested around the top gear track was equiped with semi-slicks

face it. Porsche is sour because they wont except the fact that nissan, the car company that beat them around nurburgring in 1989 with the r32 skyline gtr, beat thier beloved sports car yet again

The point on contention isn't the other tests. It's the Nurburgring lap, and only the Nurburgring lap.

Now yes, if the GT-R has been faster in almost every test than the 911 Turbo, and in some cases, the GT2. You would expect it to be true at the Nurburgring as well. A slower lap than both cars does look suspect.

However, a 7:29 claim sounds just as suspicious, although Porsche does seem to neglect that most GT-Rs are underrated in terms of power.

Another factor I forgot to mention yesterday is that the 7:29 lap was not solely due to the stickier Dunlop tires. There were also some chassis modifications, in the form of stiffer transmission mounts. Has Nissan begun including these on production GT-Rs? If not, that could skew Porsche's results to a degree. :dunno:




An easy way for either company to reinforce their claims would be to do another test with all three cars and run a GT-R with Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires like the Porsches have. Out of curiosity, I'd love to see what the GT-R could run. :Ohnoez:

If the GT-R is faster, then Nissan is probably in the right. If not, then Porsche would have some serious credibility added to their claim of 'cut slick tires,' since the MSPCs almost fit that category.

The question is, who has the guts to do the experiment? :hsugh:

[CHINGONE]

You know I wondered how the fat ass of a gtr could turn the laps it did. in the words I had seen "nissan got crunk with the boost." this is intresting to say the least and dont think nissan hasnt heard about this.

I see it as 1 or 2 things.

Nissan decides to retest for a confirmed proof of lap aginst porsche and porsche looks all butt hurt.

Or

Nissan does nothing. ignore the problem and it will go away. *it prolley wont*

only time will tell on this.

There are very much unknowns with the test cars but we will see im thinking.



The gtr needs naws. 2 big bottles, and needs em soon.

[Michael]

The point on contention isn't the other tests. It's the Nurburgring lap, and only the Nurburgring lap.

Now yes, if the GT-R has been faster in almost every test than the 911 Turbo, and in some cases, the GT2. You would expect it to be true at the Nurburgring as well. A slower lap than both cars does look suspect.

However, a 7:29 claim sounds just as suspicious, although Porsche does seem to neglect that most GT-Rs are underrated in terms of power.

Another factor I forgot to mention yesterday is that the 7:29 lap was not solely due to the stickier Dunlop tires. There were also some chassis modifications, in the form of stiffer transmission mounts. Has Nissan begun including these on production GT-Rs? If not, that could skew Porsche's results to a degree. :dunno:




An easy way for either company to reinforce their claims would be to do another test with all three cars and run a GT-R with Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires like the Porsches have. Out of curiosity, I'd love to see what the GT-R could run. :Ohnoez:

If the GT-R is faster, then Nissan is probably in the right. If not, then Porsche would have some serious credibility added to their claim of 'cut slick tires,' since the MSPCs almost fit that category.

The question is, who has the guts to do the experiment? :hsugh:

I don't see this whole situation ending well at all. It's not like the Turbo and GT2 couldn't turn up the boost...so it's definitely not okay to take either company at their word.

Porsche has enough problems with VW/Audi they shouldn't even bother with this shit, but it makes for good press. Once they've got access to Audi's stuff [they own something like 35-36% of VW which is a controlling stake, and VW owns 99% of Audi, but government officials and VW alike won't give Porsche access to Audi technology/engines- access which they rightfully paid for], they should deal with the GT-R problem.

But by then Nissan will have come out with a new propaganda campaign to combat...

Who here has driven either car? If not driven, ridden shotgun?

[Replica]

I finally saw a black GTR today on the way home from work. I didn't really notice it and was bored in traffic. At first I was like "What the hell is wrong with that 350Z? Why is it so fat?"

Also, to those brining up Porsche premeir driver, Rohl or whatever his name is, isn't he in like his 60's now?

[VQuick]

I finally saw a black GTR today on the way home from work. I didn't really notice it and was bored in traffic. At first I was like "What the hell is wrong with that 350Z? Why is it so fat?"

Also, to those brining up Porsche premeir driver, Rohl or whatever his name is, isn't he in like his 60's now?

He's still the development driver for Porsche, and still faster than the engineer they used.

Is he wasn't, then why would his name still in the listings as the driver for Porsche's manufacturer laps at the 'Ring? If the engineer is better, then just use him for everything, right?? :hsugh:

[Replica]

He's still the development driver for Porsche, and still faster than the engineer they used.

Is he wasn't, then why would his name still in the listings as the driver for Porsche's manufacturer laps at the 'Ring? If the engineer is better, then just use him for everything, right?? :hsugh:
I have no idea. I don't work for Porsche's HR department.

[dantheman]

ive ridden in a 996 turbo but not a 997 or a GT2.

im going to try and get a ride along in Jack's GTR at TWS at the end of this month and if i do ill report back.

[Vinnyman]

ive ridden in a 996 turbo but not a 997 or a GT2.

im going to try and get a ride along in Jack's GTR at TWS at the end of this month and if i do ill report back.
Double Dave's? :p

Whatever, this won't stop me from obtaining MY GTR! :rock:

[_Zac]

It's a sad day for all the fanboys on this site.. You all sound ridiculus with your what ifs and buts. Face it the car has never gone that fast unless it came straight from nissan for whatever track they sent it to. They tune the cars to turn "record" runs then sell you something different. Most likely a car with much less horsepower and tire.

I know a few of you will ride gtr nuts till the day you die and that's fine, but it's sure going to be hard to look yourself in the mirror knowing how full of shit you must be to type this garbage.

Franny hurry up and buy one so we can line it up with a 996 we just finished, I promise that thing will look stupid no matter what you do to it. ;)

[Mr. MCoupe]

I like the price on the GTR.

[Mr. Stone]

It's a sad day for all the fanboys on this site.. You all sound ridiculus with your what ifs and buts. Face it the car has never gone that fast unless it came straight from nissan for whatever track they sent it to. They tune the cars to turn "record" runs then sell you something different. Most likely a car with much less horsepower and tire.

I know a few of you will ride gtr nuts till the day you die and that's fine, but it's sure going to be hard to look yourself in the mirror knowing how full of shit you must be to type this garbage.

Franny hurry up and buy one so we can line it up with a 996 we just finished, I promise that thing will look stupid no matter what you do to it. ;)

Another less than insightful post from the "industry insider".

You, like Replica first did, think that all of us on here are actually upset about this. I, like many, want proof from both sides of the house.

If I'm a "nutrider" as you kids seemed to keep saying, it's for GM and VW.

As I recall, Ford tried to sell a certain year Cobra off as something special and buyers believed it until they drove it wondering where all the hp was that Ford claimed there was. Yes, Ford rectified the mistake, but they still lied to the public.

[superchi]

I didn't know so many people had such an investment in either company to even give a shit about whether Nissan pumped up their lap times or if Porsche is just butt-hurt about this ridiculous debate.

I also didn't know there were so many reps from Nissan and Porsche that post on this forum either, glad to hear there's :rolleyes: This thread is full of lulz

[rickykline]

I would rather take equity out of my home loan to change the oil and brakes on my porsche than own a fucking Nissan.



End of thread!

[TXBlackout03]

You see that?


End of thread, Mods please close.


:Optimus:

[seinkonnen]

I didn't know so many people had such an investment in either company to even give a shit about whether Nissan pumped up their lap times or if Porsche is just butt-hurt about this ridiculous debate.

I also didn't know there were so many reps from Nissan and Porsche that post on this forum either, glad to hear there's :rolleyes: This thread is full of lulz

Well, if you were a CAR ENTHUSIAST, like the majority of us here, then you'd probably give a shit too.

[TXBlackout03]

I didn't know so many people had such an investment in either company to even give a shit about whether Nissan pumped up their lap times or if Porsche is just butt-hurt about this ridiculous debate.

I also didn't know there were so many reps from Nissan and Porsche that post on this forum either, glad to hear there's :rolleyes: This thread is full of lulz

You're stupid.

[azinwood]

Well, if you were a CAR ENTHUSIAST, like the majority of us here, then you'd probably give a shit too.
You, the king of all bench racers, plus others care a little too much.

[azinwood]

I would rather take equity out of my home loan to change the oil and brakes on my porsche than own a fucking Nissan.



End of thread!
lol @ beretta!

[JHizzleX]

whats all the hub-bub about?

[rickykline]

Zzzzzzz! These Nissan threads are making me really sleepy.

[Replica]

You, like Replica first did, think that all of us on here are actually upset about this. I, like many, want proof from both sides of the house.
Lol, don't make that mistake. There are some SERIOUS BUSINESS people in here. Seinkeninininin and a few others are willing to participate in mortal combat over GTR ring times. :Goofy:

[Mr. Stone]

Lol, don't make that mistake. There are some SERIOUS BUSINESS people in here. Seinkeninininin and a few others are willing to participate in mortal combat over GTR ring times. :Goofy:

I'm just having a discussion.

What get's to me is when people make stupid comments.

Let's face it, love it or hate it, it is one of the most significant cars to come out in many years. The only one I can think that may top this one is the Corvette ZR1.

If some of you can't see that, then you're not really a car enthusiast IMO.

[Replica]

If some of you can't see that, then you're not really a car enthusiast IMO.

Is there a rulebook for what makes someone a "true enthusiast?" :Goofy:

[i-vtec195]

Is there a rulebook for what makes someone a "true enthusiast?" :Goofy:

apparently, seinkeninininin wrote it. :hsugh:

[Replica]

apparently, seinkeninininin wrote it. :hsugh:
It turns out I may not be a true enthusiast, but just a guy that likes cars. :gonk:

[TXBlackout03]

It turns out I may not be a true enthusiast, but just a guy that likes cars. :gonk:

Shit, me too.

[gismo4]

It turns out I may not be a true enthusiast, but just a guy that likes cars. :gonk:

his point was, if you like performance cars (car enthusiast was his choice of words), you can't dislike this car because it performs VERY well. to dislike it is to just do so in spite.

edit* at least that was how i saw it.

[seinkonnen]

What the hell are you guys talking about? I responded to some guy who said we were silly for caring about whether or not Nissan/Porsche lied to us. I told him that if he was in anyway a car enthusiast, then this should probably interest him. It has nothing to do with how well the car performs, it has to do with how interested you are in cars (and car companies) like this.

So, I don't know what you crazies are going on about. Stop being so sensitive.

And no gismo4, that was not my point. I don't like the Nissan GTR, so there you go.

[seinkonnen]

You, the king of all bench racers.

Woohooooooo. :thumb:

[i-vtec195]

So, I don't know what you crazies are going on about. Stop being so sensitive.


it's no biggie other than the fact that your charming personality has really seemed to rub off so well on others regardless of what manufacturer they prefer... :thumb:

[gismo4]

What the hell are you guys talking about? I responded to some guy who said we were silly for caring about whether or not Nissan/Porsche lied to us. I told him that if he was in anyway a car enthusiast, then this should probably interest him. It has nothing to do with how well the car performs, it has to do with how interested you are in cars (and car companies) like this.

So, I don't know what you crazies are going on about. Stop being so sensitive.

And no gismo4, that was not my point. I don't like the Nissan GTR, so there you go.

i didn't know your name was Mr. Stone.