Next Generation RENESIS (Rotary Engine 16X)

[DrKilljoY]

http://www.mazda.com/motorshow/technology/power/renesis/img/tit_renesis.gif

http://www.mazda.com/motorshow/technology/power/renesis/img/pic_renesis.jpg

A next-generation rotary engine with an introduction of direct injection for dramatically improved driving performance and fuel efficiency.

<Performance>
- Driving performance: torque boosted at all engine speeds
- Environmental performance: further improvement in fuel efficiency

<Major technological appointments>
- Direct injection rotary engine
- Redesigned trochoid rotor housing and increased displacement
- Light weight and compact

(Source: Mazda website)

[heyitsryan]

awesome.. what will this be going into?

[DrKilljoY]

more info:

In developing the next-generation RENESIS, Mazda made a thoroughgoing revision of engine dimensions including the trochoid rotor housing, adopting a longer stroke and larger displacement of 1600cc (800cc x 2) aimed to raise thermal efficiency and boost torque at all engine speeds. By employing the Hydrogen RE design policy of a direct injection system and aluminum side housing, as well as various other measures, we are further promoting the rotary engine’s merits of light weight and compact size.

[DrKilljoY]

awesome.. what will this be going into?

Various levels of speculation have been heard.

Rumors of a freshened/redesigned RX-8. Possibly long awaited Mazdaspeed RX-8.

Rumors of a 2 seat sportscar based on Kabura Concept rooted by MX-5/RX-8 based chassis.

Rumors of a completely new concept design expected at Tokyo Auto Show which oddly enough is absent at the show.

I've heard what Mazda wants me to hear, I've seen what Mazda wants me to see, it seems as though they sure do like to keep us guessing. That's what I know right now. I'm expecting some updates before NAIAS, so we will see. :ninja:

[heyitsryan]

Sounds nice, I've ridden in quite a few rx8's; they have amazing handling for a "four door" yet seemed underpowered a tad bit.They are fun with the traction control off though.

[DrKilljoY]

Yeah, the RX-8 (and nearly all rotaries) strength is in the finesse and balance of the car. Brute force is great, but it's got nothing on a well balanced sports car.

Regardless what people think of the RX-8, it will hand an FD RX-7 (stock vs stock) it's ass on many a road course. That's not to say that the FD isn't a remarkable sports car, but Mazda didn't just slack off after it's creation.

Personally, I don't care for the driving position in the RX-8, but I also drive older FC RX-7s. I can only imagine this engine has many other segment competitors watching with much interest.

[Ls_DM]

i like

[i-vtec195]

hopefully they put it into some more appealing models!

[DrKilljoY]

Wow, there is a comment with merit. Want to share with us your grand plan for a Mazda makeover? :)

[Jeff Goji]

Can't wait to see some numbers on this new engine (fuel consumption and power.)

[1990hatch]

Looks neet. Rotary engines amaze me. So complex.

[i-vtec195]

Wow, there is a comment with merit. Want to share with us your grand plan for a Mazda makeover? :)

someone got their panties in a bunch. :stare:

not sure if you're aware of this, but the miata and rx8 aren't exactly the most popular platforms in the sports car world. :stare: i know they can perform, but i can't tell you the last person i knew who rambled on about how badly they want to get one. :hsugh:

[VH_Supra26]

wow, cant wait for this thing to come out

[Corrosive]

I would love a rotary Miata, and I can only immagine all the piston haters out there who would line up to own one.

As far as the RX-8 stomping on an FD... Not sure about that one. I may have to do some reaserch, but I as well have driven both and really think the added power of the FD, plus lower weight really are quite the factor. The reliability of an FD though compaired to an 8 (given much older car... but still even lower milage fd's have problems) is rediculiously in the 8's favor.

Either way, I am glad to see mazda still working on engines that put smiles on lots of peoples faces.

[Michael]

someone got their panties in a bunch. :stare:

not sure if you're aware of this, but the miata and rx8 aren't exactly the most popular platforms in the sports car world. :stare: i know they can perform, but i can't tell you the last person i knew who rambled on about how badly they want to get one. :hsugh:

Actually, they are the most popular cars in the sports car world.

Check your facts, sir. [respectfully said, in case I sound sarcastic]

[i-vtec195]

Actually, they are the most popular cars in the sports car world.

Check your facts, sir. [respectfully said, in case I sound sarcastic]

well, i didn't word that properly then! not talking like spec racers, as i know spec miata is huge, i meant amongst cars that people i know want to own as their daily driver.

[Michael]

I would love a rotary Miata, and I can only immagine all the piston haters out there who would line up to own one.

As far as the RX-8 stomping on an FD... Not sure about that one. I may have to do some reaserch, but I as well have driven both and really think the added power of the FD, plus lower weight really are quite the factor. The reliability of an FD though compaired to an 8 (given much older car... but still even lower milage fd's have problems) is rediculiously in the 8's favor.

Either way, I am glad to see mazda still working on engines that put smiles on lots of peoples faces.

Yup, I just want bigger balls for mine, with the right mods I'm running circles around the Carreras already so it's only a matter of 2 months before the bigger game.

[Jeff Goji]

well, i didn't word that properly then! not talking like spec racers, as i know spec miata is huge, i meant amongst cars that people i know want to own as their daily driver.

Over 700,000 Miatas sold world wide, that actually makes them the best selling sports car of all time, not just as "spec racers."

[ninja]

someone got their panties in a bunch. :stare:

not sure if you're aware of this, but the miata and rx8 aren't exactly the most popular platforms in the sports car world. :stare: i know they can perform, but i can't tell you the last person i knew who rambled on about how badly they want to get one. :hsugh:

you can't be serious.

if you mentioned just the rx8, sure, that's a pretty good argument, but the miata, arguably the single most important sports car in the last 2 decades? :stare: it's been THE definitive "sports car that Average Joe can buy"

[DrKilljoY]

someone got their panties in a bunch. :stare:

not sure if you're aware of this, but the miata and rx8 aren't exactly the most popular platforms in the sports car world. :stare: i know they can perform, but i can't tell you the last person i knew who rambled on about how badly they want to get one. :hsugh:

No, not really. It's just funny when "keyboard critics" don't have any real world recommendations. I mean you couldn't even come up with something lame like body style changes or driveline options, all you know is "unappealing".

Let me offer this... When you see a chick that is cute, do you have only two modes unappealing and appealing? In that likely situation you could possibly come up with something like she needs bigger ta-tas, or maybe this girl could work on her legs.... see what I mean constructive critisism like the kind I am trying to give to you.

You obviously know Mazda has a problem, yet you fail to deliver on the recommendations. That's just elitist behaviour no matter how you cut it.

So what are the popular platforms in the sportscar world? C6, 911, GT-R really now, those seem like fair competitors for a 20k+ 2 seater and a 25k+ coupe.

...and just what types of cars DO people ramble about? Endulge us, please. Because i have just the opposite type of response. I get emails from people every week seeking to join the Mazda faithful.

DKJ :idea:

[DrKilljoY]

Over 700,000 Miatas sold world wide, that actually makes them the best selling sports car of all time, not just as "spec racers."

Actually in January 2007 production numbers exceeded 800,000 units.

Oh year, let's not forget that the Guiness Book of Records’ ranks the Miata as the most successful open two-seater sports car of all time.

[Corrosive]

Not to be a moderator here but can we get back to this engine that really deserves our attention. All hail new rotary goodness.

[yourmom25]

i hope these engines are more reliable than the current rotaries. that's the only way i'd ever buy one.

[Jeff Goji]

Actually in January 2007 production numbers exceeded 800,000 units.

Oh year, let's not forget that the Guiness Book of Records’ ranks the Miata as the most successful open two-seater sports car of all time.

I remembered it had hit a new mark recently, but couldn't remember what it was. :p

Back on topic...
Still want to see some numbers on this engine.
Is this slated strictly for the RX-8?
If so, when does the RX-8 get this new engine?

[TXBlackout03]

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b102/XCPuff/rotarysucks.jpg

[tha_W]

Looks neet. Rotary engines amaze me. So complex.

actually the rotary engines are farrrr less complex when compared to piston engines. lol @ valves

[al]

does anyone know if Dave Coleman is still an engineer for Mazda? Did he have any part of this next gen Renesis?

[yourmom25]

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b102/XCPuff/rotarysucks.jpg

ROFL

[-=E36=-]

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b102/XCPuff/rotarysucks.jpg



:thumb:

[DrKilljoY]

actually the rotary engines are farrrr less complex when compared to piston engines. lol @ valves

Agreed.

The guys at Overboost wrote up an interesting article touching on the misunderstandings of the rotary engine.

Renesis: A Closer Look
5/21/2003

We've been to dozens of car shows. You see the hood of a Civic propped open and other Honda enthusiasts swarm. "What kind of pistons do you use?" "What intake manifold is that?" Check out a Mazda RX-7 with the hood open, and people are quiet. They're staring in awe, sure, but they're also not quite sure what to make of that stumpy thing that the turbocharger is bolted to—it sure doesn't look like any internal-combustion engine!

It's hard to say why an engine with only 11 primary parts intimidates the average wrench, but perhaps exploded views and cutaways will put everything into perspective.

for more of the story check it out here: http://www.c74.net/xplane/AADxLEARFAN/Overboost_Renesis_%20A%20Closer%20Look.pdf

There are some exploded diagrams of the engine and a complete walkthrough of each of the parts.

[DrKilljoY]

does anyone know if Dave Coleman is still an engineer for Mazda? Did he have any part of this next gen Renesis?

Coleman, never heard of him. Wasn't there a magazine editor by that name? All of the rotary engineers past and present I have met have been of Japanese decent and surname.

[al]

Coleman, never heard of him. Wasn't there a magazine editor by that name? All of the rotary engineers past and present I have met have been of Japanese decent and surname.

He is/was a technical editor for Sport Compact Car and possibly some other magazines. I thought he left SCC to work for Mazda, but I can't find any info backing this claim

[DrKilljoY]

Yup, I found confirmation that he was employeed as early as 2006, although I have never met him in my visits to Mazda R&D or Corporate in Irvine.

[peteyd]

This will probably go in the next gen rx-7 mazda has been hinting about since late 06. They were talking heavily about releasing an "updated" fd rx-7 to help boost sales and since the the rx-8 was crap and didnt live up to what they expected. I have to go look for the pics but the ones ive seen look pretty descent it had a lot of similarites to the fd before they stopped producing it.

[i-vtec195]

This will probably go in the next gen rx-7 mazda has been hinting about since late 06. They were talking heavily about releasing an "updated" fd rx-7 to help boost sales and since the the rx-8 was crap and didnt live up to what they expected. I have to go look for the pics but the ones ive seen look pretty descent it had a lot of similarites to the fd before they stopped producing it.

oh, so you're referring to a more appealing model? nice.

[DrKilljoY]

This will probably go in the next gen rx-7 mazda has been hinting about since late 06. They were talking heavily about releasing an "updated" fd rx-7 to help boost sales and since the the rx-8 was crap and didnt live up to what they expected. I have to go look for the pics but the ones ive seen look pretty descent it had a lot of similarites to the fd before they stopped producing it.

No offense but, where are you getting your info, your way off on the FD speculation. BTW, Mazda considers the RX-8 to be a tremendous success. Production and sales of the RX-8 have always challenged rotary engine production levels, even if Mazda wanted to build more, they just don't have the production capacity currently.

[DrKilljoY]

I remembered it had hit a new mark recently, but couldn't remember what it was. :p

Back on topic...
Still want to see some numbers on this engine.
Is this slated strictly for the RX-8?
If so, when does the RX-8 get this new engine?

Estimates are flying around out there... There should be some SAE whitepapers that give some hint to power, but until emmissions issues have been settled I doubt Mazda is going to claim any solid numbers. They would hate to have another round of 2003's missing power debacle.

The motor has not been designated for any chassis at this time, I have learned that the motor is currently in a mule RX-8 chassis at Mazda R&D and there were considerations to release the motor in that configuration, however those are the considerations of the engineers, not the beancounters. My best guess is that the RX-8 will not see this engine installed, however if it does happen it would be after the redesign in 2009.

[VashThaStampede]

Brute force is great, but it's got nothing on a well balanced sports car.
:thumb:

Looks neet. Rotary engines amaze me. So complex.
actually,they're remarkably simple.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b102/XCPuff/rotarysucks.jpg

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[TensaI]

I, for one, hope it isn't going into the kabura. That design is just too much IMO. A slightly remodeled 2-door (and lighter!) rx8 with that motor would be my ideal....... I may be biased though ^_^

Looking forward to its release!!

[rowteree]

i hope these engines are more reliable than the current rotaries. that's the only way i'd ever buy one.

what makes you so sure that the current rotary engines arent reliable? The current renesis is possibly the most reliable one ever made. I have actually seen one person with a renesis with more than 125k miles with little to no problems let alone on the same motor. Not to mention that the current renesis upgrades are now available to even possibly surpass FD potential, you just have to have the $$$ to do it

[rowteree]

This will probably go in the next gen rx-7 mazda has been hinting about since late 06. They were talking heavily about releasing an "updated" fd rx-7 to help boost sales and since the the rx-8 was crap and didnt live up to what they expected. I have to go look for the pics but the ones ive seen look pretty descent it had a lot of similarites to the fd before they stopped producing it.

don't count on this new engine to go into an rx-7 which has long been deceased and wont make a comeback any time soon. More than likely this new engine design will go into the 2+2 kabura coupe concept design which will possibly be the redesigned rx-8 around 2009-10. Your sources are incorrect peteyd considering the rx-8 was actually a huge success in mazda's point of view. Think of it this way, the rx-8 has the same body style when it was released in 04 when as the subaru wrx has had 3 different ones in a short 3-4 year time span.

[HORSEPOWER CHEF]

i hope for a rx-7ish sort of car.if they can somehow compete with the 350z by creating a legit 250-290hp.i really hope that they do a little bit of over engineering and underate this powerplant...

[FbodTrek]

Looks neet. Rotary engines amaze me. So complex.

Actually, the LEAST complex IC engine in production cars... fewer moving parts by a long shot. :p
They *should have revolutionized commuter car engine technology...but it just didn't happen :(

[FbodTrek]

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b102/XCPuff/rotarysucks.jpg

That would be fine example for a NON-Renesis engine...the renesis have the ports on the SIDES of the rotor housing now, which equals no blown apex seals... Learn your motors please :)

[Vinnyman]

I personally like the rx-8 granted, i would rather have an rx-7 money provided of course. i hope mazda doesn't underpower their rotory like they did with the rx-8

[winc281]

im surprised Mazda hasnt developed a Mazdaspeed Miata w/a rotary yet...Ive thought about it for a long time..badass engine+small lightweight vehicle=a shit load of zoom zoom and ching ching

[DrKilljoY]

im surprised Mazda hasnt developed a Mazdaspeed Miata w/a rotary yet...Ive thought about it for a long time..badass engine+small lightweight vehicle=a shit load of zoom zoom and ching ching


The MX-5/Miata will never come with a rotary, however it is possible there will be a lightweight vehicle with a rotary in the near future. FWIW - The Miata and RX-8 are based on a similar basic chassis layout.

The MX- designation is for Piston engined sports cars, while the RX- designation is for Rotary engined sports cars.

[VolksFaggin]

Fuel efficiency... Rotary... all in the same post?!?!


MADNESS!!! :rofl: jk

Sign me up, thats a cool motor! :thumb: I need a adapter plate for it to go in my 914. :rock:

Will it mount up like a 13b with same bell housing bolting locations?

[LamTran]

The components are maybe simple but the fundamental of the design is complex, thats why there were drawbacks. Essentially, the whole idea of a rotary is complex.

On other hand, piston-type engine has a more simplified idea than rotary. If you go and explain two newbies, they would understand the piston-type more than the rotary.

Im not trying to bash the rotary enthusiast but I agree w/ the ideas of things being simplified. I also understand the idea of more variables you put into a design, the more complications you get, vice versa. However, in the 21st century, technology moves so quick and computers are being used to monitor and control in engines at different area or different variables to increase the efficiency of an engine. This is where the drawback of rotary not being able to control a lot of things bc there arent that much variables to control

I do not know a whole lot about engine and its design but thats how I see it.
actually the rotary engines are farrrr less complex when compared to piston engines. lol @ valves

[VolksFaggin]

What can you control on a Piston engine that you can't on a rotary?

[LamTran]

Ill let you guess one prime example. hint, ppl on this board love this shit and they got all sorts of name for it. theres another hint on the quote that i replied to.

[VolksFaggin]

Ill let you guess one prime example. hint, ppl on this board love this shit and they got all sorts of name for it. theres another hint on the quote that i replied to.

So you can tune a piston motor for nitrious, so are you saying you can't for a Rotary? Maybe Boost... Yep you can tune for boost on a rotary.


I didn't know we were playing riddles tonight. Its fun! :D

[DrKilljoY]

Will it mount up like a 13b with same bell housing bolting locations?

Who knows, this motor hasn't been out of the Mazda R&D corral. There is a RX-8 mule in Irvine with the engine in it, but the underbits are still a bit of a mystery.

[DrKilljoY]

However, in the 21st century, technology moves so quick and computers are being used to monitor and control in engines at different area or different variables to increase the efficiency of an engine. This is where the drawback of rotary not being able to control a lot of things bc there arent that much variables to control

I do not know a whole lot about engine and its design but thats how I see it.

Interesting post, albeit a little off base. I suppose you were unaware that rotary engines have been utilizing variable engine control for a couple of decades now. Here is a diagram of the Renesis engine variable intake system check this out...

http://www.rotaryengineillustrated.com/renesis/renesis09popup.jpg

I agree with your last comment. :thumb:

[DrKilljoY]

However, in the 21st century, technology moves so quick and computers are being used to monitor and control in engines at different area or different variables to increase the efficiency of an engine. This is where the drawback of rotary not being able to control a lot of things bc there arent that much variables to control

I do not know a whole lot about engine and its design but thats how I see it.

Interesting post, albeit a little off base. I suppose you were unaware that rotary engines have been utilizing variable engine control for a couple of decades now. Do a search on Mazda and the use of the variable intake port on the N/A 13Bs of the 80s. Not to mention the development of the variable intake system on the 787B that contributed to their Le Mans win.

Here is a diagram of the Renesis engine variable intake system check this out...

http://www.rotaryengineillustrated.com/renesis/renesis09popup.jpg

I agree with your last comment. :thumb:

[LamTran]

No, I was making a general comment; NOT saying anything about specific technical specs such as variable intake valve. The word "variable" intended to represent a variable quantity in a design. If you read it again, youll understand what I am trying to say.

I admit I do not know much or none at all when it comes to rotary, although I read up about it awhile back.

I think I remember something about that awhile back but didnt understand what the variable intake thingy. Again, Im not here to bash anyone so enlighten me w/ what you know, maybe I can learn a thing or two.

[DrKilljoY]

Gotcha, I see where you are coming from. Makes more sense in that context. Honestly though, I can't think of any specific (required) variable that cannot be changed or modified.

Got any examples? We can figure this weird little motor together.

[TurboFC3C]

Turbo SPOCOM? Check.
Turbo Sedan? Check.
Turbo SUV? Check.
Turbo Convertible? (Old style, yes) Check.
Turbo Rotary? Shit, not since 95 in this country.

That pisses me off that Mazda has given the Turbo/Mazdaspeed treatment to most of their cars but not the RX-8's. You would think they would make a Mazdaspeed version to the car which makes the most sense (performance wise).

I love Mazda, but it still aggravates my nerves.

[DrKilljoY]

Turbo SPOCOM? Check.
Turbo Sedan? Check.
Turbo SUV? Check.
Turbo Convertible? (Old style, yes) Check.
Turbo Rotary? Shit, not since 95 in this country.

That pisses me off that Mazda has given the Turbo/Mazdaspeed treatment to most of their cars but not the RX-8's. You would think they would make a Mazdaspeed version to the car which makes the most sense (performance wise).

I love Mazda, but it still aggravates my nerves.


They do make a Mazdaspeed version. It's available in Japan only. Sorry guys.

However just like the Mazdaspeed RX-7 you could never purchase in the states, you can assemble your own Mazdaspeed RX-8 by purchasing the individual components from Mazda.

It's not so odd that there is no Mazdaspeed option, if it made financial sense it would have been done years ago. It was well after the RX-7 ceased to be exported to the US before the first Mazdaspeed versions ever came to be.

Remember that the Mazdaspeed version of a RX-8 would technically have to be federalized as a separated vehicle and go through a costly series of tests and examinations before being allowed for sale in the US. Considering the niche status the RX-8 already has in the US the cost of federalizing and exporting a few of these RX-8s would far exceed their worth. The other Mazdaspeed vehicles have tremendously larger sales basins to draw from.

[LamTran]

Elemtary example is amt of fuel can be put into a chamber is quite limited compare to piston-types w/ valvetrains. W/ valvetrains, there are control of a mixture and COMBUSTION, aka HEMI, or the more popular VTEC. Btw, Hemi and vtec have diff meanings but in comparison to mixture and combustion, i think you know what im talking about.

How about CR on these? it should be low right?

How about those highest points, or apexes, of the rotor(s)? Dont they get worn out?

[DrKilljoY]

Elemtary example is amt of fuel can be put into a chamber is quite limited compare to piston-types w/ valvetrains. W/ valvetrains, there are control of a mixture and COMBUSTION, aka HEMI, or the more popular VTEC. Btw, Hemi and vtec have diff meanings but in comparison to mixture and combustion, i think you know what im talking about.

How about CR on these? it should be low right?

How about those highest points, or apexes, of the rotor(s)? Dont they get worn out?

I know what your talking about, however with the exception of the highest of modified rotaries there is plenty of room for air and fuel to mix within the confines of the rotor housing. You might check out some of the 3D illustrations here ( http://www.rotaryengineillustrated.com/wankel-engine-animations/index.php )and get a feel for the flow of the engine and how the rotary combustion cycle works. Essentially, the limit of your intake is relegated to the restriction of your exhaust and the durability of your motor to sustain increased rotational stress.

Compression Ratios were lower on early models, however since the development of the 13B series of motors have seen compression ratios as high as 9.0:1. RENESIS engines continue to improve on these compression rations currently RX-8s in production run 10.0:1 ratios.

As far as wear items naturally aspirated models of rotary engines are quite reliable and are known to regularly last in excess of 200,000 miles with no internal repairs needed. Longevity of the RENESIS is expected to increase those numbers dramatically. Most RX-8s are only now beginning to reach the distances needed to produce internal seal wear. That's not to say there aren't plenty of failures happening as well. From what I know that number is within an expected tolerance.

[LeetoEG6]

I wonder what kind of numbers this new rotary is capable of producing.

[DrKilljoY]

Lots of speculation on that answer right now, especially since there are different emmissions regulations worldwide.

Unofficial estimates are 280-300 for a production vehicle.

I spoke with Mazda engineers (off the record) at Sevenstock and was given an a figure estimated at 30% RWHP increase over the current Renesis.

[LeetoEG6]

Wow, sounds very promising...and this is coming from a Honda guy.

[NOPISTN]

wow i'm late, just saw this thread today.... So will we be able to bridge port the exauhst?

[DrKilljoY]

wow i'm late, just saw this thread today.... So will we be able to bridge port the exauhst?

Shouldn't you be bridgeporting the intake?

I've never seen a bridgeported exhaust.

[NOPISTN]

Shouldn't you be bridgeporting the intake?

I've never seen a bridgeported exhaust.

lol, yeah but if the exhaust is Renesis style and through the side iorns then you'd possibly bridgeport them to increse the size of them. And yeah of course you'd bridge port the intake as well *crosses fingers*.

[DrKilljoY]

Interesting concept.... I'd like to see that.

Think it would make the exhaust note sound any different?

[rowteree]

Lots of speculation on that answer right now, especially since there are different emmissions regulations worldwide.

Unofficial estimates are 280-300 for a production vehicle.

I spoke with Mazda engineers (off the record) at Sevenstock and was given an a figure estimated at 30% RWHP increase over the current Renesis.

so if thats what mazda claims, take away 20 horses and thats your real number. I remember when they released the rx-8 back in 2004, they claimed numbers of 250hp, but over the years it was proven that it was only 232hp at the crank and around 170hp to the wheels. So if they claim 280-300, i would expect the new 16x to produce 260-270hp at the crank and make atleast 210rwhp due to parasitic drive train loss and half the torque. Unless mazda has really but some work into this new engine to produce more torque and better gas mileage, it will probably be a slightly faster rx-8 in the 1/4 mile which will be set to compete against 350zs and evos

[DrKilljoY]

The RX-Evolv and early pre-production RX-8s were known to have over 250 hp, early model RX-8s in the home market (JPN) also were pushing similar numbers as well.

The motor is completely capable of the proper numbers, it is the ECU detuning to ensure reliability and other systems hindrances that cost the Renesis the higher HP numbers. Many owners who have developed their own fuel maps have found missing HP, albeit at the cost of passing emissions standards. Also the RX-8 was released in 2003, not 2004.

Some of the issues related to lowers HP numbers include; Under heavy load acceleration (as on a dyno), the timing is retarded and the fuel mixture richened to reduce the likelihood of pre-ignition or spark knock. If spark knock is encountered, a knock sensor senses the condition and further retards the timing. Gradually timing is advanced and fuel mixture leaned after the load is reduced.

A second reason for fuel enrichment is that when timing is retarded, exhaust temperatures increase; a richer mixture lowers the exhaust temperatures and reduces the chances of damaging the catalytic converter.

In real world driving, this all goes unnoticed to the driver and appears seamless with no disruptions to the performance of the engine. The car encounters a load under acceleration but the load quickly diminishes as the car accelerates in each gear.

Operating on a chassis dynamometer, however, creates a completely different environment. Inertia dynos use a known mass that is accelerated to measure torque at the wheels. This is usually done in one gear under heavy load conditions:

Only the rear wheels are turning while the front tires remain stationary.

On cars equipped with DSC with traction control, the difference in speed between the front and rear wheels is sensed and the power is reduced immediately to compensate for what the car senses as excess wheel spin.

If the DSC is turned off, the traction control is disabled but the brake functions of the DSC are still operational.

If the DSC system is completely disabled, this removes the brake functions from the equation, however it does not fully remove the engine management system functions.

The ABS hydraulic unit/control module (HU/CM), or the DSC HU/CM for cars with DSC, determines vehicle speed by comparing the speed of all four wheels. If two are turning and two are stationary, it will still compute a speed but senses that the car is experiencing excessive wheel spin. To protect against engine or catalyst damage:

The engine management system compares the throttle opening, gear selection (determined by engine speed and road speed) charging efficiency and engine coolant temperature to determine the driving condition.

Since the car is under heavy load, in a tall gear (testing is usually performed in third or fourth gear), with a wide throttle position angle (wide open), spark timing is reduced and the fuel mixture is richened to reduce the occurrence of spark knock and to reduce catalytic converter temperatures.

As you can see all of these factors taken into consideration create a rather complex myriad of issues related to the dyno results of the vehicle. Mazda chose to refund customers money or offer them a gift for sticking with the car. It's also been proven the ET and MPH numbers were no different for the 248hp (original spec) cars vs, the 232 hp models. Furthermore, JDM spec RX-8s have an avalible ECU that boosts power to 255 hp from the factory, this is courtesy of enhanced ECU fuel mapping.

[henrymiranda]

...............

[legendkurado]

This is definitely exciting news for all rotary enthusiasts. I find it funny that people make such "matter-fact" comments about rotaries as if they drove one themselves. I remember going to a recent import car meet, and I parked my 8 next to a 7. One person made a comment that comparing the two engines was like comparing sh*t and chocolate. (sh*t being the 8) Another asked me how many engines I've gone through, which on the same night his own engine blew from boost.
Rotary engines are beautiful works of engineering, and I am not here to argue that they are superior or inferior. I am simply laying out or extending an offer for people to research and learn about rotaries before making comments. As far as the diagram that was displayed on this thread, you don't hear me assuming a B-16 Engine is the same as a K-20 series. Even the K-20 series have major differences between them. Well the previous 13B's and the 13B Renesis are different also. That is why I give major props to That would be fine example for a NON-Renesis engine...the renesis have the ports on the SIDES of the rotor housing now, which equals no blown apex seals... Learn your motors please :)
You have my respect, even though you aren't a rotary owner, you take the time to know your stuff before commenting.
DKJ was trying to share some exciting news to all car fans, and hope that it would promote improvement of the Wankel.

[DrKilljoY]

Thanks legend, I'm pretty sure I saw your your car yesterday. :D

BTW - If someone at one of our meetings is talking shit like that lemmie know please.

[legendkurado]

Thanks legend, I'm pretty sure I saw your your car yesterday. :D

BTW - If someone at one of our meetings is talking shit like that lemmie know please.

DKJ, everyone is nothing but friendly and helpful at our local meets. However I wasn't able to make it recently due to finals, and some family problems. I do have some interesting charts and news. I will be able to bring a Renesis engine for everyone to dissect and play with on the January meet. (If you know that I mean)

[DrKilljoY]

Cool, yeah the one I saw yesterday was already "dissected" a bit. LOL

I guess I better get off my butt and get meeting details posted, the meet is on New Years Day.

[LeetoEG6]

Looking forward to saying your RX-8 Legend. :) Hopefully everything works out for you.

[legendkurado]

Thank You LeetoEG6. I think I know you? Hmm.. duct tape racing eh? ;p

[LeetoEG6]

They don't call me The Night Kids EG for nothing. I'll run you once you get your car back.

[legendkurado]

q?