"They hate us for our freedom"

[Leo]

anyone honestly believe that's why they hate us?

We can discuss the reasons why they hate us, but I first want to know if anyone actually believes that elementary school nonesense.

[Bryan]

Fuck no.

I lived in Kuwait City in 1989 for a few months and saw it with my own eyes. They envy our freedom sure, but they hate us for how we use our freedom to walk all over the rest of the fucking world, especially them.

[Demosthenes]

Fuck no.

If the U.S. didn't force its will on other countries so much there wouldn't be so much resentment.

[gq]

I think people are forgetting that even when we WERENT enforcing our will on the world, we still got attacked.

Pearl Harbour anyone?

It is rather simplistic to think that the answer is one way or another when infact it is extremely complicated and no as black and white as people would like to think.

[996TT_2002]

Terrorists hate us because we're not Muslim extermists like them. In their eyes is right to kill any non-Muslim.

These people kill their own family if they leave Islam. (Sudan for example)

They execute people for carrying Bibles in some countries. (Sudan again)

They have no respect for human life and must be destroyed like the cock roaches they are.

[juanschwartz]

I think people are forgetting that even when we WERENT enforcing our will on the world, we still got attacked.

Pearl Harbour anyone?

It is rather simplistic to think that the answer is one way or another when infact it is extremely complicated and no as black and white as people would like to think.
Remember how recently declassified documents showed we had broken the Japanese encryption 1 week before and knew about the attack? Remember how our president provoked them by pulling oil resources from them?

We needed a reason to get involved in that war.

[juanschwartz]

Oh, and I'm not saying it was completely unjustified getting involved in WW2... but let's not act like angels here.

[ormand]

It all starts with UN Resolution 1414.

[stretch-d]

Fuck no.

I lived in Kuwait City in 1989 for a few months and saw it with my own eyes. They envy our freedom sure, but they hate us for how we use our freedom to walk all over the rest of the fucking world, especially them.

Ok...but what do the people of Kuait think about us now?....now that they know the truth about us? Ya' know...the same truth that combats the propaganda that the rest of the mid-east is force-fed by their own failing governments.

Their governments try to shift animosity that would be directed at them for failing to help with their own people's needs, to the U.S...a convienient scape goat. They have virtually no choice to accept it as truth because their not exactly allowed to hear the whole story.

By blaming the U.S. first...and at all, you are buying into that same propaganda.

That's the reason they hate us.

[Dy Lon]

Pearl Harbour anyone?

I thought they attacked us for stoping supply of oil to them. :dunno:

[Retali8]

There are probably several reasons why they hate us. Not good enough reasons for them killing innocent people.

Even if you stay neutral you'll still have enemies.

[juanschwartz]

Ok...but what do the people of Kuait think about us now?....now that they know the truth about us? Ya' know...the same truth that combats the propaganda that the rest of the mid-east is force-fed by their own failing governments.

Their governments try to shift animosity that would be directed at them for failing to help with their own people's needs, to the U.S...a convienient scape goat. They have virtually no choice to accept it as truth because their not exactly allowed to hear the whole story.

By blaming the U.S. first...and at all, you are buying into that same propaganda.

That's the reason they hate us.
You don't think it has anything to do with the fact that we are like a parasite when we interact with them? Take ALL of the resources we can get our hands on, then fuck them over...

[stretch-d]

You don't think it has anything to do with the fact that we are like a parasite when we interact with them? Take ALL of the resources we can get our hands on, then fuck them over...

You mean--Fuck them over by purchasing the only valuable resource that they have to offer? A resource that floods a serious amount of wealth into their country?

Please explain in a factual way how this can be described as "fucking them over".

So in your mind: America = parasite...That says a lot about how you feel about this great country.

[juanschwartz]

You mean--Fuck them over by purchasing the only valuable resource that they have to offer? A resource that floods a serious amount of wealth into their country?

Please explain in a factual way how this can be described as "fucking them over".

So in your mind: America = parasite...That says a lot about how you feel about this great country.
I'd say it's more about how I feel about our foreign policy. You'd make McCarthy proud with that logic. I care a great deal about this country. Otherwise, I wouldn't try to explain what's done in mine and your name throughout the world...

What do you think of the strategic placement of Iraq and Afghanistan in relation to Iran. We are in control of the government sitting on top of the world's 2nd largest oil reserves left. Do you not understand why this is happening? We are beyond peak-oil. We are using more than is being produced. We are nearing the end of the age of oil. The US wants to be in control of the last remaining oil for obvious reasons, but it doesn't justify their actions.

[ormand]

You mean--Fuck them over by purchasing the only valuable resource that they have to offer? A resource that floods a serious amount of wealth into their country?

Please explain in a factual way how this can be described as "fucking them over".

So in your mind: America = parasite...That says a lot about how you feel about this great country.

America is cancer. And last time I checked, what made USA great was the power of discent, which is what Juanschwartz is exercising right now.

The truth of the matter is oil is a commodity worth a generous amount of money. The reason people in the mideastern countries really despise US government and its corporations is because they actively seek corruption within THERE nations so that only a FEW get a hold of that great sum of money. Take a look at Nigeria and how Enron manipulated domestic politics to there side.

Again, all you all have to do is look up UN Resolution 1414 for your answers.

Main Entry: can·cer Pronunciation: 'kan(t)-s&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin (genitive Cancri), literally, crab; akin to Greek karkinos crab, cancer
1 capitalized a : a northern zodiacal constellation between Gemini and Leo b (1) : the 4th sign of the zodiac in astrology -- see ZODIAC table (2) : one born under the sign of Cancer
2 [Latin, crab, cancer] a : a malignant tumor of potentially unlimited growth that expands locally by invasion and systemically by metastasis b : an abnormal bodily state marked by such tumors
3 : something evil or malignant that spreads destructively <the cancer of hidden resentment -- Irish Digest>
4 a : an enlarged tumorlike plant growth (as that of crown gall) b : a plant disease marked by such growths
- can·cer·ous /'kan(t)s-r&s, 'kan(t)-s&-/ adjective
- can·cer·ous·ly adverb

[MuddyJEEP.com]

America is cancer. And last time I checked, what made USA great was the power of discent, which is what Juanschwartz is exercising right now.

The truth of the matter is oil is a commodity worth a generous amount of money. The reason people in the mideastern countries really despise US government and its corporations is because they actively seek corruption within THERE nations so that only a FEW get a hold of that great sum of money. Take a look at Nigeria and how Enron manipulated domestic politics to there side.

Again, all you all have to do is look up UN Resolution 1414 for your answers.

Main Entry: can·cer Pronunciation: 'kan(t)-s&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin (genitive Cancri), literally, crab; akin to Greek karkinos crab, cancer
1 capitalized a : a northern zodiacal constellation between Gemini and Leo b (1) : the 4th sign of the zodiac in astrology -- see ZODIAC table (2) : one born under the sign of Cancer
2 [Latin, crab, cancer] a : a malignant tumor of potentially unlimited growth that expands locally by invasion and systemically by metastasis b : an abnormal bodily state marked by such tumors
3 : something evil or malignant that spreads destructively <the cancer of hidden resentment -- Irish Digest>
4 a : an enlarged tumorlike plant growth (as that of crown gall) b : a plant disease marked by such growths
- can·cer·ous /'kan(t)s-r&s, 'kan(t)-s&-/ adjective
- can·cer·ous·ly adverb
a very good analogy indeed

[mr toolio]

anyone honestly believe that's why they hate us?

We can discuss the reasons why they hate us, but I first want to know if anyone actually believes that elementary school nonesense.


does anyone honestly believe this war is for oil.. :eh:

ADam

[stretch-d]

America is cancer. And last time I checked, what made USA great was the power of discent, which is what Juanschwartz is exercising right now.

The truth of the matter is oil is a commodity worth a generous amount of money. The reason people in the mideastern countries really despise US government and its corporations is because they actively seek corruption within THERE nations so that only a FEW get a hold of that great sum of money. Take a look at Nigeria and how Enron manipulated domestic politics to there side.

Again, all you all have to do is look up UN Resolution 1414 for your answers.

Main Entry: can·cer Pronunciation: 'kan(t)-s&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin (genitive Cancri), literally, crab; akin to Greek karkinos crab, cancer
1 capitalized a : a northern zodiacal constellation between Gemini and Leo b (1) : the 4th sign of the zodiac in astrology -- see ZODIAC table (2) : one born under the sign of Cancer
2 [Latin, crab, cancer] a : a malignant tumor of potentially unlimited growth that expands locally by invasion and systemically by metastasis b : an abnormal bodily state marked by such tumors
3 : something evil or malignant that spreads destructively <the cancer of hidden resentment -- Irish Digest>
4 a : an enlarged tumorlike plant growth (as that of crown gall) b : a plant disease marked by such growths
- can·cer·ous /'kan(t)s-r&s, 'kan(t)-s&-/ adjective
- can·cer·ous·ly adverb


I don't know rather to respond to your post or just shake my head.

1) Desent is a healthy thing if the desent is backed up with fact to form the position and warant the desent.

2) IT'S NOT OUR FAULT THAT THEIR GOVERMENTS NEGLECT THE NEEDS OF THEIR PEOPLE. It's funny because when we do liberate a country from oppression (Iraq) where a dictator was hoarding all of the incomming wealth for himself, people like you bitch about it and call America tyrannical. But, in almost the same breath, you denounce America for wanting to purchase their resource.

3) Way to be an American...You really know how to make yor point. But let me see if I understood you correctly...America = a cancerous tumour on the society of the Earth. Got it.

Note: Due to point number two, it is my view that you are proven to have zero credit on the issue.

[drunkenmaster]

does anyone honestly believe this war is for oil.. :eh:

ADam
yes and religion

and fuck no... i been to london, pakistan over the summer and every people over there i have talked to have priceless dream for a freedom to have like america... they are pissed or revengeful.. just wishful

[stretch-d]

I have something else to add as well...The religous extremists do absolutely hate us for our freedom, but they don't call it that.

What we call freedom is choice of religion, sexual preferrence, women having rights, technological advancement etc...They call this infidelity and due cause for our complete and utter destruction.

Do you disagree with me Texasleo?

[drunkenmaster]

I have something else to add as well...The religous extremists do absolutely hate us for our freedom, but they don't call it that.

What we call freedom is choice of religion, sexual preferrence, women having rights, technological advancement etc...They call this infidelity and due cause for our complete and utter destruction.

Do you disagree with me Texasleo?
i would say offcourse but who created them to become extremists? :rolleyes: after we INVADED iraq? what WE NEEDED to create is education system to target the poverty in iraq... i can go and on but since i am in america.. i am lazy to more explain for now

[stretch-d]

i would say offcourse but who created them to become extremists? :rolleyes: after we INVADED iraq? what WE NEEDED to create is education system to target the poverty in iraq... i can go and on but since i am in america.. i am lazy to more explain for now

Oh Jesus Christ. I give up. Can someone help me out here and explain to 'the master' how a people lends itself to 'extremisim'...so we can all understand it?

[juanschwartz]

does anyone honestly believe this war is for oil.. :eh:

ADam
If you look at the overall picture and their objective in the long run, then yes it's very easy to come to that conclusion. What do you think it was for?

[drunkenmaster]

If you look at the overall picture and their objective in the long run, then yes it's very easy to come to that conclusion. What do you think it was for?
and who are the oil companies inside iraq? lol the bush administration... lol

[3.5altima123]

yes and religion

and fuck no... i been to london, pakistan over the summer and every people over there i have talked to have priceless dream for a freedom to have like america... they are pissed or revengeful.. just wishful

You honestly believe that it is over religion and Oil, jeeeez

[juanschwartz]

Oh Jesus Christ. I give up. Can someone help me out here and explain to 'the master' how a people lends itself to 'extremisim'...so we can all understand it?
I will take a shot at this. When the Iranians and Soviets were fighting, we did not want communism(our only competitive super-power) to spread into Eurasia. The birth oh the Eurasian "stan"s then ensued and we trained MUSLIM FUNDAMENTALISTS who were willing to fight a common enemy. Osama bin Laden was one of the leaders of these groups(al Qaeda). We helped train them to fight the Soviets for us. We thinned out the Soviet Army quite well too with their help. After we were done with them, we washed our hands clean of them. Now they don't like us.

[Page]

Are people remembering that we were the ones that put Saddam in power in the first place?

:dunno:

[juanschwartz]

Are people remembering that we were the ones that put Saddam in power in the first place?

:dunno:
Or more importantly that if he were a threat, that Israel could have DESTROYED him.

[Page]

Or more importantly that if he were a threat, that Israel could have DESTROYED him.

I don't know if you are being serious or sarcastic.

If serious, I'd like to know how. Not that I'm skeptical, just uninformed and I actually want to know.

[juanschwartz]

I don't know if you are being serious or sarcastic.

If serious, I'd like to know how. Not that I'm skeptical, just uninformed and I actually want to know.

Have you seen what Israel does to Palestinians who pose a threat? They don't mind flying helicopters over civilians and shooting missles on crowded streets at the person's car.

Iraq's military was beyond weak when we went in. That's why we just drove through the desert. Israel could have taken the Iraqi army. However, if it were a pre-emptive strike from Israel, Iran and every other Arab country would have RAPED Israel for it... unless of course Iraq provoked them and it was justifiable.

[Page]

Have you seen what Israel does to Palestinians who pose a threat? They don't mind flying helicopters over civilians and shooting missles on crowded streets at the person's car.

Iraq's military was beyond weak when we went in. That's why we just drove through the desert. Israel could have taken the Iraqi army. However, if it were a pre-emptive strike from Israel, Iran and every other Arab country would have RAPED Israel for it... unless of course Iraq provoked them and it was justifiable.

Ah. I remember my history teacher talking about how a lot of people over there were pissed off because some 40 UN resolutions for Isreal arent's being inforced. As if the world is favoring Isreal and screwing other countries in the process (mainly palestine I think if I remember right), by not requiring Isrealis to get out of the gaza strip and other areas.

[juanschwartz]

Israel is fucking Palestine over with the wall. Check out this little bit of info... http://www.auphr.org/thewall/SeparationWallMap.swf

[3.5altima123]

Yeah they are fucking them over..... perhaps they could install a path with flowers and little water falls leading all the way to the bus stops that THEY KEEP BLOWING UP.

[juanschwartz]

Yeah they are fucking them over..... perhaps they could install a path with flowers and little water falls leading all the way to the bus stops that THEY KEEP BLOWING UP.
Desperation and a future of being locked inside a wall will make you do some crazy shit huh?

[Page]

That's terrible what they are doing! Wouldn't a better place to "save" be Palestine? or what's left of it?

They probably hate Jew's now than Hitler or die-hard Nazi's did.....

[axio]

That's terrible what they are doing! Wouldn't a better place to "save" be Palestine? or what's left of it?

They probably hate Jew's now than Hitler or die-hard Nazi's did.....
The Ottoman Empire being torn apart by Russia basically created the entire problem in Jerusalem/Israel/Palestine/whatever you wanna call it. Before then they were on good terms, lived together, worked together, paid taxes together, etc.

funny how a 100 years and leaders on both sides who have their heads up their asses will do to people

[Page]

The Ottoman Empire being torn apart by Russia basically created the entire problem in Jerusalem/Israel/Palestine/whatever you wanna call it. Before then they were on good terms, lived together, worked together, paid taxes together, etc.

funny how a 100 years and leaders on both sides who have their heads up their asses will do to people

I wish I knew more =( I hate not knowing what's going on and it's hard to find credible resources..

[the Asshats]

I don't know everything about the war and the reasons but IMO, they hate us because we interfere with their culture and what they believe is right....The U.S, although i love it and wouldn't want to live anywhere else, has a habit of pushing their cultures, beliefs, and government where it isn't wanted.

[axio]

I wish I knew more =( I hate not knowing what's going on and it's hard to find credible resources..
Go pick up William Cleveland's History of the Modern Middle East. It gives a detailed history in plain english starting from when Islam started all the way up til the first Gulf War.

No bias what-so-ever in the entire book, just facts. It makes it kind of boring at times, but thats what you get when you take out bias.

[juanschwartz]

Go pick up William Cleveland's History of the Modern Middle East. It gives a detailed history in plain english starting from when Islam started all the way up til the first Gulf War.

No bias what-so-ever in the entire book, just facts. It makes it kind of boring at times, but thats what you get when you take out bias.
I'm going to check that out myself.

[Page]

I'm going to check that out myself.

me too! thanks a lot!

[stretch-d]

I will take a shot at this. When the Iranians and Soviets were fighting, we did not want communism(our only competitive super-power) to spread into Eurasia. The birth oh the Eurasian "stan"s then ensued and we trained MUSLIM FUNDAMENTALISTS who were willing to fight a common enemy. Osama bin Laden was one of the leaders of these groups(al Qaeda). We helped train them to fight the Soviets for us. We thinned out the Soviet Army quite well too with their help. After we were done with them, we washed our hands clean of them. Now they don't like us.

I believe that is true more or less, but more how UBL feels than the brainwashed people he recruits by twisting the Isaamic religion...but does that justify thier reason to kill us as civilians--or at all?...and how does helping them to secure their land from the Soviets make America the bad guy?

Ok...You wrote: "We helped train them to fight the Soviets for us"...For us? Think about that for a minute. We did that to help prevent the spread of Communisim--which is beneficial to to the whole world. Appearently getting attacked is the thanks we get from him/them.

Also I might add that I think that there's more to the story, but why blame your own country and sympathize with someone who would cut your head off if they had a chance? I just don't understand.

[stretch-d]

History shows without a doubt that America is a liberator, not a conquerer.

[mr toolio]

Palestinians should get the hell out of Israel, they dont belong there. Israel has been for Israelis and its proven in text books and papers all over the world. You never once hear about Israel attacking palestinians, its always the other way around, and when Israel RETALIATES its deemed an attack.. Its self defense.

Adam

[juanschwartz]

I believe that is true more or less, but more how UBL feels than the brainwashed people he recruits by twisting the Isaamic religion...but does that justify thier reason to kill us as civilians--or at all?...and how does helping them to secure their land from the Soviets make America the bad guy?

Ok...You wrote: "We helped train them to fight the Soviets for us"...For us? Think about that for a minute. We did that to help prevent the spread of Communisim--which is beneficial to to the whole world. Appearently getting attacked is the thanks we get from him/them.

Also I might add that I think that there's more to the story, but why blame your own country and sympathize with someone who would cut your head off if they had a chance? I just don't understand.

What do we have to offer by spreading OUR form of democracy and capitalism? Take a look at hour our country operates presently. Politicians can be lobbied(bought). The owners of large companies lobby politicians so that they can destroy the enviornment to save money. Politicians slander each other on public airwaves instead of campaigning honorably. The same people that own the large corporations are close associates with the people who own media companies. No one is ever held accountable for anything. Our economic plans are so short-sited and greedy that they are unstable. Then, right when the company starts to crash, the CEOs destroy middle-class' retirement while bilking billions for themselves.

Hell, nothing is even made in America anymore because people would rather raise profit margins by "outsourcing" to people to who have unsafe work conditions, no health insurance or benefits and pay them $1.60 a day. But, they sure do have that nice american flag plastered on their porche.

I could go on and on. There's alot more. What I'm saying, is we need to get our shit straight and STOP ALL OF THE CORRUPTION before we go spreading our way of governing.

Man I hate people...

/rant

[concretslider]

What do we have to offer by spreading OUR form of democracy and capitalism? Take a look at hour our country operates presently. Politicians can be lobbied(bought). The owners of large companies lobby politicians so that they can destroy the enviornment to save money. Politicians slander each other on public airwaves instead of campaigning honorably. The same people that own the large corporations are close associates with the people who own media companies. No one is ever held accountable for anything. Our economic plans are so short-sited and greedy that they are unstable. Then, right when the company starts to crash, the CEOs destroy middle-class' retirement while bilking billions for themselves.

Hell, nothing is even made in America anymore because people would rather raise profit margins by "outsourcing" to people to who have unsafe work conditions, no health insurance or benefits and pay them $1.60 a day. But, they sure do have that nice american flag plastered on their porche.

I could go on and on. There's alot more. What I'm saying, is we need to get our shit straight and STOP ALL OF THE CORRUPTION before we go spreading our way of governing.

Man I hate people...

/rant

hmmmm just wondering are u high? :kekegay:

[juanschwartz]

hmmmm just wondering are u high? :kekegay:
:yeahno: I'm being realistic.

[concretslider]

:yeahno: I'm being realistic.
:squint: but u didn't answer me :squint:

[juanschwartz]

:squint: but u didn't answer me :squint:
I thought the "Yeeeeahh, NO!" thing would take care of that. No, I'm not.

[concretslider]

I thought the "Yeeeeahh, NO!" thing would take care of that. No, I'm not.
:smoke: :eekbunny:

[kamakaze_22]

I see this whole thing about being hated comes from the US and its determination to push its government and way of life on others.

America has been a liberator? How about an occupier?

Nmae the countries we've liberated. Dont say Iraq...liberation my as*. Korea? Where they still have gun fire across the borders and nothing is still solved? Vietnam? Where we killed 3 millions Vietnamese for nothing....NOTHING!

Every country you probably will say we liberated had a government that didnt fundamentaly agree with ours, so we say we have to liberate them, and get things that we wanted form them the easy way, by puting a government in place that we deem fit.

[CheeseFrog]

I think people are forgetting that even when we WERENT enforcing our will on the world, we still got attacked.

Pearl Harbour anyone?
But we weren't being attacked because the Japanese hated us. So there goes that theory.

[egg]

What do we have to offer by spreading OUR form of democracy and capitalism? Take a look at hour our country operates presently. Politicians can be lobbied(bought). The owners of large companies lobby politicians so that they can destroy the enviornment to save money. Politicians slander each other on public airwaves instead of campaigning honorably. The same people that own the large corporations are close associates with the people who own media companies. No one is ever held accountable for anything. Our economic plans are so short-sited and greedy that they are unstable. Then, right when the company starts to crash, the CEOs destroy middle-class' retirement while bilking billions for themselves.

Hell, nothing is even made in America anymore because people would rather raise profit margins by "outsourcing" to people to who have unsafe work conditions, no health insurance or benefits and pay them $1.60 a day. But, they sure do have that nice american flag plastered on their porche.

I could go on and on. There's alot more. What I'm saying, is we need to get our shit straight and STOP ALL OF THE CORRUPTION before we go spreading our way of governing.

Man I hate people...

/rant


you are the man.

[Flores]

What do we have to offer by spreading OUR form of democracy and capitalism? Take a look at hour our country operates presently. Politicians can be lobbied(bought). The owners of large companies lobby politicians so that they can destroy the enviornment to save money. Politicians slander each other on public airwaves instead of campaigning honorably. The same people that own the large corporations are close associates with the people who own media companies. No one is ever held accountable for anything. Our economic plans are so short-sited and greedy that they are unstable. Then, right when the company starts to crash, the CEOs destroy middle-class' retirement while bilking billions for themselves.

Hell, nothing is even made in America anymore because people would rather raise profit margins by "outsourcing" to people to who have unsafe work conditions, no health insurance or benefits and pay them $1.60 a day. But, they sure do have that nice american flag plastered on their porche.

I could go on and on. There's alot more. What I'm saying, is we need to get our shit straight and STOP ALL OF THE CORRUPTION before we go spreading our way of governing.

Man I hate people...

/rant

The ONLY thing we have to offer is Freedom. Our system of government is based on individual freedom, the freedom to worship as you wish, the freedom to persue your own business in your own way, the freedom to tell the guy in charge to piss of, and not worry about him having you shot on the spot.

All the BS your whining about is a result of freedom. When common values are stretched to the point they are no longer values, it isn't a moral problem to rob your customers blind, or take a bribe to give a company a contract. The decline of morality, which is the result of the blurring of 'right and wrong' that so many people loudly demand is their RIGHT in this country, has led us to the point where we spend more time defending minority 'diffrences', to the detriment of the entire country.

What can we do about this?

Quite simply, the answer is : leadership.

People who are lost, because they are constantly told they can't help that they are :ADD, depressed, poor, rich, *-American minorty, gay, straight whatever, are just that: LOST. they WASTE precious time trying to make sure the majority of people know how repressed they are, and how it is all The majority's fault! and then they waste more time, tying up our courts and lawmakers to make themselves more equal than the rest of us, on the grounds they need protection.

We deperatly need our leaders to LEAD. politicians that don't stand for anything but what the latest polls show are not leaders, they have a big FOR SALE sign on their forheads. I don't blame them personally, the job they are in is 1) hard 2) corrupting and 3) laced with bennies. Expose even the most honerable person to the type of environment where people bend over backwards to give you ANYTHING you want in exchange for a little of y our time, and your support for their little pet project, and you generate a culture of corruption that is very difficult to overcome. Folks that believe this say the simple answer is 'term limits' (which does seem to work for the preseident, eh?) Of course, those that make the laws on our behalf don't want to give up the power we have handed them, and make it sound like they are the only ones really qualified (by virtue of their 20 years in the service of the country in congress) to hold that office.



This doesn't mean our way of governmetn is corrupt or wrong, it just has it's issues, they same as any other system. Compared to most forms of government, the constitutional republic is probably the most flexiable, stable form of government any one has managed to come up with. Now we just need to come up with a way to entice our reps in the government to remember they work for US, and not for whomever they talked to last over a $500 a plate dinner.


cliff notes: style of government good, but it has a few problems. Freedom is the reason people do stupid things. Free people do cooler things than non-free people.

[Page]

Palestinians should get the hell out of Israel, they dont belong there. Israel has been for Israelis and its proven in text books and papers all over the world. You never once hear about Israel attacking palestinians, its always the other way around, and when Israel RETALIATES its deemed an attack.. Its self defense.

Adam

Destroying a people's culture and way of life is retaliating? I think you have some information wrong

[CovertPenguin]

As an example.. U dont see people who are run by dictatorships or harsh goverments whine.. if they do, they are dealt with accordingly... We whine the most, because we can....

[mr toolio]

Destroying a people's culture and way of life is retaliating? I think you have some information wrong

they retaliate, not attack!! palestinians have no right to be in Israel. look it up man, its everywhere, palestinians dont belong there..

Adam

[Page]

they retaliate, not attack!! palestinians have no right to be in Israel. look it up man, its everywhere, palestinians dont belong there..

Adam

And almost all the people in America REALLY don't belong here. what's your point? they need a place to live too. If the US and UN can take land and give it to Jews/Isrealis and everyone else on the frickin planet the Palestinians deserve some as well!

[stretch-d]

What do we have to offer by spreading OUR form of democracy and capitalism? Take a look at hour our country operates presently. Politicians can be lobbied(bought). The owners of large companies lobby politicians so that they can destroy the enviornment to save money. Politicians slander each other on public airwaves instead of campaigning honorably. The same people that own the large corporations are close associates with the people who own media companies. No one is ever held accountable for anything. Our economic plans are so short-sited and greedy that they are unstable. Then, right when the company starts to crash, the CEOs destroy middle-class' retirement while bilking billions for themselves.

Hell, nothing is even made in America anymore because people would rather raise profit margins by "outsourcing" to people to who have unsafe work conditions, no health insurance or benefits and pay them $1.60 a day. But, they sure do have that nice american flag plastered on their porche.

I could go on and on. There's alot more. What I'm saying, is we need to get our shit straight and STOP ALL OF THE CORRUPTION before we go spreading our way of governing.

Man I hate people...

/rant


Man, you're angry at America for sure--and and you may have some reasons, but there's one thing that trumps them all--The freedom and hope that we provide them is far better than what they have.

And the issues about some people in our nation that you listed aren't anything compared to the problems of other places in the world.

Don't ever forget: AMERICA > everything else.

[Sab0921]

they retaliate, not attack!! palestinians have no right to be in Israel. look it up man, its everywhere, palestinians dont belong there..

Adam

yes, Palestinans don't belong in Israel because...let's see...(I know this is not a complete history of the issue, it's an abbreviated form of what happened etc...)

2000 years ago, the famous "diaspora" took place, the majority of the jews that occupied the area were killed for forced out by the romans. Many sought refuge in Russia and Poland, lands not under roman control at the time.

Fast forward 1600 years, The Romanav dynasty comes to power in Russia. It's commonly known that a scapegoat is usually needed when troubles arise. The Russians choose the jews, and every so often, a purge of jewish citizens occurs. Many relocate to the biblical lands of their ancestry, and many immigrate to the good ol USA. (at one point in time “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!” actually meant something)

A growing jewish population is arriving in what is now Israel, and what was then the Ottoman empire, for the most part, people are living in harmony.

Then comes WWI, by the end, the Ottoman empire is no more, and "Israel" falls into British hands, who declare support for a jewish state in the area. Muslims protest, claiming they have lived there for thousands of years.

WWII comes, the holocaust occurs, afterwards, support for a jewish state arises out of sympathy, and Israel is created out of the Palestinian lands. Muslims get super pissed and attack...etc....

Cliffs: Jews kicked out, come back 2000 years later and say "I lived here 2000 years ago, leave muslim people.

yes, that was the shittiest version of middle eastern history ever written.

So, why do the palestinians have no claim to the land they called home for 1500 years?

[Flores]

yes, Palestinans don't belong in Israel because...let's see...(I know this is not a complete history of the issue, it's an abbreviated form of what happened etc...)

2000 years ago, the famous "diaspora" took place, the majority of the jews that occupied the area were killed for forced out by the romans. Many sought refuge in Russia and Poland, lands not under roman control at the time.

Fast forward 1600 years, The Romanav dynasty comes to power in Russia. It's commonly known that a scapegoat is usually needed when troubles arise. The Russians choose the jews, and every so often, a purge of jewish citizens occurs. Many relocate to the biblical lands of their ancestry, and many immigrate to the good ol USA. (at one point in time “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!” actually meant something)

A growing jewish population is arriving in what is now Israel, and what was then the Ottoman empire, for the most part, people are living in harmony.

Then comes WWI, by the end, the Ottoman empire is no more, and "Israel" falls into British hands, who declare support for a jewish state in the area. Muslims protest, claiming they have lived there for thousands of years.

WWII comes, the holocaust occurs, afterwards, support for a jewish state arises out of sympathy, and Israel is created out of the Palestinian lands. Muslims get super pissed and attack...etc....

Cliffs: Jews kicked out, come back 2000 years later and say "I lived here 2000 years ago, leave muslim people.

yes, that was the shittiest version of middle eastern history ever written.

So, why do the palestinians have no claim to the land they called home for 1500 years?


Yea, lets just ignore all the arabs and muslims that live in isreal quite peacably with their neighbors as BOTH religions dictate...

What you have there is what would happen in the US if we were less civilized. The minority faction doesn't like the way things are going, and doesn't feel they can trust the government. So they are revolting against the government the only way they think will make a diffrence.

The problem is simple: they will all die out before they manage to make a change in the type of goverment that runs that area now. And make no mistake, the palestinians are more than welcome to live there, they simply don't want to tolerate a Jew down the street...

So, cliff notes: The evil jews are FORCING the good and right palestinians to try and kill them at every turn, because they have moved into and settled lands that they 1) can't possibly fill on their own 2) lost in a war 3) has been recognized by pretty much every country in the world as being a jewish homeland...

for those of you keeping up with the hypocracy, the same folks that say we should mind our own business, listen to the UN, and let them tell us how to behave, are the same ones advocating we butt our noses into Isreal, ignore the UN, and tell the Isrealis how to behave in their own country! (which, we are doing anyway, trying to get them to be peacable... Clinton thought he managed to 'solve' the problem, but of course, that darn araffat couldn't make it stick...)

is it any wonder people are deserting the more liberal stand agains George Bush in droves? It is hard to support something when you have to keep shifting ground to do it...

[Sab0921]

Yea, lets just ignore all the arabs and muslims that live in isreal quite peacably with their neighbors as BOTH religions dictate...

Yes, the good arabs who submit to apartheid rule, if only black people had been so kind in this country.


What you have there is what would happen in the US if we were less civilized. The minority faction doesn't like the way things are going, and doesn't feel they can trust the government. So they are revolting against the government the only way they think will make a diffrence.

If you really want to put the situation in an american POV; it would be the native americans rising up to fight against those who stole their land


The problem is simple: they will all die out before they manage to make a change in the type of goverment that runs that area now. And make no mistake, the palestinians are more than welcome to live there, they simply don't want to tolerate a Jew down the street...

Which is why the israeli's are building a giant wall to keep the arabs out. you keep trying to push the belief that the arabs are the aggressors in this situation, they are fighting an opressive government in their ancestral lands(although every judeo-christian religous group has a claim to israel as their ancestral lands). Palestinians don't bulldoze israeli homes to build arab settlement in jewish areas.


So, cliff notes: The evil jews are FORCING the good and right palestinians to try and kill them at every turn, because they have moved into and settled lands that they 1) can't possibly fill on their own 2) lost in a war 3) has been recognized by pretty much every country in the world as being a jewish homeland...

No, no, no palestinian people, the giant wall, it's a freedom wall.

for those of you keeping up with the hypocracy, the same folks that say we should mind our own business, listen to the UN, and let them tell us how to behave, are the same ones advocating we butt our noses into Isreal, ignore the UN, and tell the Isrealis how to behave in their own country! (which, we are doing anyway, trying to get them to be peacable... Clinton thought he managed to 'solve' the problem, but of course, that darn araffat couldn't make it stick...)

is it any wonder people are deserting the more liberal stand agains George Bush in droves? It is hard to support something when you have to keep shifting ground to do it...

Yes, I do believe we should follow the UN's lead on Israel.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/UN/unres1544.html

I don't think the jewish virtual library is very biased against Israel.

Cliffs: Israel is an agressor, trying to impose an apartheid government, whose actions have been condemned numerous times by the UNSC.

[axio]

Palestinians should get the hell out of Israel, they dont belong there. Israel has been for Israelis and its proven in text books and papers all over the world. You never once hear about Israel attacking palestinians, its always the other way around, and when Israel RETALIATES its deemed an attack.. Its self defense.

Adam
erm

Palestineans are Semitic. They've been living there just as long as the Jews have. The only claim that Jews have is that their religion has been there longer than the Christian or Muslim religion, but that is more of a technicality than anything else.

"Arab" isn't an ethnicity, it is simply someone who speaks Arabic. Everyone living in the Middle East is Semitic.

The Israel/Palestine problem is pretty simple. After Russia fucked over the Ottoman Empire the Ottomans started worrying only about themselves and not about everyone around them. Israel/Palestine was one of those areas. The area has been under control from one neighbor group or another for thousands of years, the indigenous people never ruled it. Mostly they were ruled by Muslim Arabs; who really didn't give a rats ass what you worshiped or did as long as you payed your taxes.

So after WWI ended the Ottoman empire fell apart and the Israel/Palestine area was without a ruler for the first time in years, but even then the Jews/Muslim Arabs/Christian Arabs all managed to live in peace. The Jews stayed on their mountain, the Muslim Arabs stayed on their mountains, and the Christian Arabs stayed on their own mountains. It wasn't until the Zionist movement to "reclaim" Israel started that there was even a notion of a Jewish state. Because of this a Muslim Arab movement started, and a short lived Christian Arab movement started (no one really payed attention to them, they kinda jumped in... shot some people, and people still ignored them so they gave up).

So basically you have a giant pissing contest going on right now. Pretty pointless, and pretty stupid.

[Flores]

erm

So basically you have a giant pissing contest going on right now. Pretty pointless, and pretty stupid.


Dude, you said it SOOO well...

I guess it bothers me when folks try to justify one side or the other... (although reading back on my post, it seems I was doing that). the bottom line is those folks don't get along, have never gotten along, and probably never WILL get along...

We may as well try and get the KKK and the NAACP to agree that they whites and blacks are equal..

[axio]

the bottom line is those folks don't get along, have never gotten along, and probably never WILL get along...
Wrong. They got along just fine until religion became the main focus. That happened in the last 40 years.

[stretch-d]

anyone honestly believe that's why they hate us?

We can discuss the reasons why they hate us, but I first want to know if anyone actually believes that elementary school nonesense.



I have something else to add as well...The religous extremists do absolutely hate us for our freedom, but they don't call it that.

What we call freedom is choice of religion, sexual preferrence, women having rights, technological advancement etc...They call this infidelity and due cause for our complete and utter destruction.

Do you disagree with me Texasleo?

You still haven't answered my question Leo...

[eternalsun]

Fuck no.

If the U.S. didn't force its will on other countries so much there wouldn't be so much resentment.
Fucking word! Times a million! Our government needs to :gtfo: